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Left wing / far left

Does anyone really know what this means, or believe it actually represents current CCP positioning or ideology? If any of these short-hand tags have meaning, I'd say it would be nationalism, with neither a left nor right slant. DOR (HK) (talk) 09:30, 2 January 2018 (UTC)

Add: The CCP isn’t listed in the Far-left political parties Category (which for some reason disappears as a Wikilink). Their policy positions don’t match our Left-wing politics article. Chinese trade unions, for example, have less to do with advocating for workers’ rights than they do with surpressing (or, controlling, to use a more neutral term) a potential political force.

Anti-globalization? Green politics? Internationalism over nationalism? Social justice for minorities? LGBT rights? Not a chance.

As we say in our Left-wing politics article, “In China, the term “Chinese New Left” denotes those who oppose the current economic reforms and favor the restoration of more socialist policies.” In other words, China’s left is not the governing force, and so the label doesn’t fit in this article. DOR (HK) (talk) 09:42, 2 January 2018 (UTC)

These labels mean nothing for governing parties in one-party states. The line should be removed altogether. --Soman (talk) 18:53, 2 January 2018 (UTC)
Agreed. Let's see if anyone else chimes in before we remove it. DOR (HK) (talk) 11:51, 3 January 2018 (UTC)
The CPC may be qualified as a Third Position's party, due to the nationalism, even ultranationalism of both Chinese politicians and civil society (e.g. aggressive attitude and threats against Vietnam, Philippines until the victory of Duterte, Japan and other countries about Spratleys, Paracels, Senkaku; violence and persecutions against Tibetans and Uighurs and aggressive messages on social networks) which look like German or Japanese attitude in 1939-45; and also the opposition to both liberal values and economic communist's policies, so that throughout not abandoning completely and officially communist ideology, the economic policy seems to be an alternative between formal capitalism and collectivized economy combined with a dictatorial regime (third position's supporters are described as against democracy and for a syncretism of nationalism and communism). Martopa (talk) 18:35, 4 January 2018 (UTC)
Moreover, Socialism with Chinese characteristics is listed in the section see also of Third Position. Martopa (talk) 18:44, 4 January 2018


I removed the left-wing label, as per this discussion.DOR (HK) (talk) 08:50, 17 January 2018 (UTC)

There's no reason to remove the description and, for the record, I object to your naming of the description of its political position as an exercise of labeling as there's nothing ulterior in stating the obvious (and, as a corollary, everything ulterior in not stating the obvious). Affiliated organizations with the CPC such as the CPSU or the Communist Party of Cuba both have their political positions documented in their respective infoboxes so I don't see why the political position of the CPC shouldn't similarly be documented in this case, and just because you think that political labels mean nothing for governing parties in one-party states doesn't mean that that in fact is true, much less that political ideologies do not in fact exist. The political position of the CPC is by definition left-wing, it explicitly identifies itself through the media of its constitutional foundations as adhering to a left-wing ideology (socialism) and its MO is similarly specialized along the logic of that ideology. Your comment about how the labels mean nationalism doesn't make sense as nationalism isn't a political position (it's an ideology that bisects the political divide) as is the comment by Martopa about how the CPC is a representative of the Third Position ideology when it explicitly attacks, in both theory and practice, what it sees as Western/non-Asian types of political systems. I have restored the description as you don't have consensus to remove it (I am disagreeing with you) so please do not restore it until we have sorted this out. Wingwraith (talk) 23:56, 17 January 2018 (UTC)
I don't think that "Far-left" must be combined with "Anti-globalization" or "Green politics", or political parties in China couldn't use the label. However I agree that after Deng come to power, the CPC nowadays is a Center-right to Far-right party de facto.--Wkbreaker (talk) 09:20, 30 January 2018 (UTC)
And believe me, if you work hard to check out the constitution of CPC, you would find "Social justice for minorities" and "Protect the Environment". Maybe it isn't these that make a party "Left" or Marxist--Wkbreaker (talk) 09:24, 30 January 2018 (UTC)

Political position and the slogans

The political position of the CPC has been removed. However,there is no consensus to remove it(see the discussion above),so it should not be removed. The slogan part is also unnecessary.The sentences cited are used by the CPC,however they are not widely-used "slogans"that can represent the CPC.If these sentences can be referred as slogans,any sentence in a CPC publication can be a 'slogan',and this is not reasonable.--113.128.150.197 (talk) 15:27, 19 April 2018 (UTC)

Ending the position arguement

@Wkbreaker, Wingwraith, DOR (HK), Martopa, and Soman:

  1. First things first. A position in a political map is a democratic thing, something which exists in liberal and iliberal democracies. In China there is only one party, and only one political movement. The party and the movement defines themselves as communists.
  2. It doesn't really matter that people are to the left or right of the CPC does it? There were people to the left of Stalin, they were shot! There were people to the right of Stalin, they were shot too! .. Are we suppose to conclude that Stalin was a centrist, and a defender against the extremism of the left and right?
  3. Third position. As far I remember, the Soviet Union underwent ethnic cleansing of sorts, Russian nationalism (Central Asians were not allowed to lead their own republics because Russians, and Eastern Europeans were preferred - China is better here), and suppression of specific groups (the Muslims in Central Asia had it way worse than the Christians in European Soviet area)..... Are we to conclude that the Soviet Union was third position? No.
  4. Territorial claims are not synonymous with nationalism. If I rightfully think something is mine, and I want it back, thats not nationalism - thats wanting something back. The conflict in the South China Sea is not proof of ultranationalism.
  5. So everything that opposes liberal democracy is third position?
  6. How is CPC a right-wing party? They have one of the most progressive tax systems in Asia - Thomas Piketty (yay that guy) has even written about it. The state owns the majority of the economy. They call themselves socialists, and say their highest ideal is communism. Despite the conflict with Vietnam, it has the highest level of diplomatic friendship China can have with a country - comprehensive strategic partnership (neither Vietnam or China designates their relationship with Japan, China, US or Russia that way)... In an increasingly liberal world, China is literally the only leading country holding onto state-owned ownership, the only country which officially proclaims that markets fail without state leadership el cetra el cetra.. Of course, in China education and health is partially privatised, and GINI is high... My point is not to say China is left or right, its just to say that its absolutely wrong footed to call the CPC centre-righr or far-right. They have literally instituted many policies leftists the world over can only dream of.
  7. Yes Tibetans and Uyghuirs are not treated well.... However, Tibet is also one of the fastest growing economic regions of the country... Hu Jintao even headed the province for several years - yes him, the previous leader. They might be suspicious of Tibetan political sentiments (because they have a strong and vibrant independence movement) but its not like they are trying to make their life a living hell. They are improving the economy in the area, they are improving living standards. That doesn't sound like either ultra nationalism or like anything else.


  • Conclusion. China is complex. The CPC is complex. The political map is relative to each country. For instance, if the most right-wing parliamentary party in Norway (that is were I live, correct) had ran for election in the US, it would be deemed far-left. Of course its not far-left. Still ,this just goes to show its relative. I find it strange that Westerners, who don't belong to China uses Western values (I probably shouldn't have used that term) to interpret the CPCs political position.

No position in the infobox. It should be removed from every one-party state ruling party on WP. Just because they make mistakes doesn't mean we should. --TIAYN (talk) 21:27, 19 April 2018 (UTC)

I agree that no "position" should be listed in the infobox. It adds not factual value at all. In reality the left, right and centrist elements of modern Chinese politics all cohabit inside CPC, fighting to pull the party in one direction or another. --Soman (talk) 22:13, 19 April 2018 (UTC)
  • Agree with TIAYN. The CPC's positions vary depending on the issue, and are hard to pin down and summarize in the infobox. Also remove the "slogans" too. Slogans were big in the Mao era, but not for today's CPC. -Zanhe (talk) 22:57, 19 April 2018 (UTC)
@Trust Is All You Need and Soman: The fact that we are in presence of a single-governing party doesn't necessary mean that the party hasn't any position (e.g. Nazi Party in Germany or fascist Italy, Franco in Spain, Pinochet in Chile, Videla in Argentina who are largely recognized as far-right), but the most important thing is that these positions must be sourced. In the case of Communist Party of Cuba, French newspaper Le Monde diplomatique classifies the party as far-left (they use the French word extrême gauche 1) ; but for the CP of China the main problem is that there are no reliable sources which define clearly a political position and Chinese leaders widely accept private property since Deng Xiaoping, so it's not really conform to the definition of far-left (far-left or far-right parties are generally antidemocratic, even if China is currently non democratic, it's not a sufficient criteria). Historically, under Mao there is no doubt that they were far-left ; but from its beginning to nowadays, the party has substantially evolved. Moreover, majority versions of Wikipedia in other languages (in French, Italian, Spanish) don't mention any political position (except in Serbian and Hebrew versions) so I think that it's most reasonable to leave the position empty ...
PS : The fact that the most right-wing party in Norway is more leftist than American Democrats of Obama/Clinton is dubious. Indeed, American political spectrum is widely perceived as very right-winged due to their strong social and religious conservatism, economic ultraliberalism, neo-conservative foreign policy ; but the Democrats aren't anti-immigration contrary to Porgress Party of Norway ; and far-right European parties are authoritarianists/antidemocratic (see threats and physical attacks from French National Front to journalists/medias), some of them openly support Mussolini and Hitler, which is not the case of the GOP which accept democratic institutions, doesn't glorify fascist or nazi regimes and under previous Republican presidencies doesn't organize pogroms, killings of immigrants, foreigners (except Trump and his supporters, but he isn't historically a real Republican and his supporters come mostly from neo-nazi groups and KKK rather than Republican party ; however there are effective counter-powers that prevent him from doing what he wants, to establish a dictatorship and so on.). And if Chinese behavior in "South China Sea" (the name isn't consensual and is subject to caution) isn't a proof of ultranationalism, it can be considered nevertheless as irredentist (same thing for Putin's Russia in Eastern Europe -> Ukraine, Georgia etc.) --Martopa (talk) 14:02, 20 April 2018 (UTC)
I think we are mixing apples and oranges in this discussion. First of all, labelling NSDAP as 'far right' is not helpful. It could easily be identified as 'far right' in the years leading up to 1933, but being in government makes the label irrelevant since 'far' indicates occupying a fringe position. In a way one could still consider German and Italian regimes in a left-right axis, because they could be compared with the opposition forces (PCI in Italy, KPD in Germany, most notably). But in present-day China the system isn't challenged from outside, all strands of modern Chinese politics, left-center-right can be found within the CPC. --Soman (talk) 17:51, 20 April 2018 (UTC)
@TIAYN: There's no reason to remove the description and I note for the record that your absurd insinuation that the naming of the description of the CPC's political position is a Western-cum-democratic machination is, in conjunction with your seventh point, proof positive that you don't even make an attempt to edit this article from a neutral point of view and therefore provides good reason to summarily dismiss your recommendation to remove the political position item from the infobox. As aforementioned, affiliated organizations with the CPC such as the CPSU or the Communist Party of Cuba both have their political positions documented in their respective infoboxes so I don't see why the political position of the CPC shouldn't similarly be documented in this case; you also didn't raise this naming issue on either the CPSU or Communist Party of Cuba talkpage as you did here, so I don't understand the double standards of your commitment to render your proposed modification. Furthermore, just because you think that political labels mean nothing for governing parties in one-party states doesn't mean that that in fact is true, much less that political ideologies do not in fact exist: the political position of the CPC is by definition left-wing, it explicitly identifies itself through the media of its constitutional foundations as adhering to a left-wing ideology (socialism) and its MO is similarly specialized along the logic of that ideology. You will also note that you contradict your master conclusion when you explicitly say through the intermediate conclusion of your sixth point that "they [the CPC] have literally instituted many policies leftists the world over can only dream of." I understand that you are pro-CPC so it makes sense that you would try to present it through its Wikipedia article with a moderate physiognomy by eliminating any mention of its political position but that's no excuse for justifying your proposal with the fundamentally defective arguments that you proffered in your OP. I have restored the description and inserted another description (authoritarian socialist) as a potential succedaneum for the CPC's political position in an effort at compromise building, but in any case you didn't have consensus to remove the initial description so do not remove that material (again) until we have sorted this out. Wingwraith (talk) 22:22, 20 April 2018 (UTC)
@Wingwraith: You've very clearly misunderstood me and @Soman:. To make the following clear:
  1. Chinese political scientific literature don't write about left or right, or if the CPC was far-left or not. They do write about left and right in the context of Europe. But its not like they are writing; "the CPC was a far-left movement which seized power".... Of course not, since left and right are relative terms...
  2. Then you misunderstood my seventh point. Leftists the world over, in democracies and what I consider as leftish (I live in a democracy), would consider China to have very leftish policies.... That does not mean that what I wrote over was wrong. The political spectrum thing is still a democracy thing. Talk to Chinese students studying abroad - they don't say "yeah, the CPC is bit to the right..." Why would they? The spectrum thing is completely pointless to them. If you are left, you have to be left of someone. Who in gods name is the CPC left too? Or right? Saying the CPC is left if compared to the Republicans is neither rationale or a good starting point.
  3. I've removed the positions several times from the Cuba party and Soviet party articles. But people like you always readd them. Check my edit history.
  4. Political ideologies of course means something for ruling parties of one-party states. But what does socialism mean? I believe that Tony Blairs socialism was down right rightism when it came to taxes and the economy. He was social of course, and increased spending on social services and school... but, yeah. Many call Blair a traitor to Labour, to the nation and to the socialist cause... Many disagree. It doesn't become easier to define a party's political position because of ideology. The Socialist Party of Serbia calls themselves socialists, but there policies have been neither very social, distributive, liberal or state-ish. They still call themselves socialists though!
  5. Yes, I do believe many leftists would have a way more positive attitude to the CPC if they recognised it as left-wing... however, as far as I know, most people in the West don't know about this aspect and its rarely in focus. Most leftists are not China admireres.
  • You havn't proven me wrong one bit with you're arguments... Literally, instead of reading what me and Soman wrote you're saying this and this does not make sense. --TIAYN (talk) 07:12, 22 April 2018 (UTC)
I haven't misunderstood anything you just aren't making sense in no small part because of your strong political bias on this issue.
1) Even if that was true it still wouldn't matter as you admitted that the political position of the CPC is on the left. ("They have literally instituted many policies leftists the world over can only dream of.") In any case if you don't like that description because it is (apparently) too vague, then we can go with what I recommended which is that the party's political position is authoritarian socialist. Either way your justifications to purge any mention of the CPC's political position on the article don't make sense.
2) Your seventh point was just a pro-CPC screed that proved my point about how you make no attempt to edit this article from a neutral point of view.
3) That's not the point the point is the double standards of your commitment to render your proposed modification, you don't go nearly to the same lengths to remove on the other two articles the same item that you are trying to remove on this one.
4) Stop restoring as you did here your disputed modifications to the article, the article listed the political position of the CPC for a long time before you came along with your (disruptive) edits.
Wingwraith (talk) 22:33, 23 April 2018 (UTC)

Wingwraith, there is something fundamentally wrong with “stating the obvious” in an encyclopedia article: the lack of a citation. When something is “by definition,” there has to be a source, somewhere. No one has come up with one and after two weeks of waiting for objections (back in January 2018), I took the bold step of rectifying a mistake.

And, let’s not forget that the political position description itself was inserted at some point, with less discussion than we are having right now.

The case for inserting a political position description has not been made.

The CCP is not the CPSU (for one thing, it still exists) or the CPCuba. However much one may wish for all communist parties to be identical, this isn’t the Cold War prior to the Sino-Soviet split. Accept that fact, and then we can move on to factual descriptions of what the CCP actually is, and how it describes itself.

Here’s how the CPP describes itself, officially:

The Communist Party of China (CPC) was founded on July 1, 1921 in Shanghai, China. After 28 years of struggle, the CPC finally won victory of "new-democratic revolution" and founded the People's Republic of China in 1949. The CPC is the ruling party of mainland China (P.R. China). The Communist Party of China is founded mainly on ideology and politics. The CPC derives its ideas and policies from the people's concentrated will and then turns that will into State laws and decisions which are passed by the National People's Congress of China through the State's legal procedures. Theoretically, CPC does not take the place of the government in the State's leadership system. The Party conducts its activities within the framework of the Constitution of the People's Republic of China and the law and has no right to transcend the Constitution and the law. All Party members, like all citizens in the country, are equal before the law. http://www.chinatoday.com/org/cpc/

The left-center-right description adds no value to this article but only serves to confuse. It should be removed. DOR (HK) (talk) 08:35, 24 April 2018 (UTC)

@Wingwraith: You are the only one who supports including positions in the infobox here... in this discussion!

There is really no point in having this discussion since you refuse to engage in talks. Instead of digesting what I mean, and from that basis refuting them... you are simply refuting them!

  1. I don't have a political bias on this issue? What would that be? What is my bias? I simply don't have one....
  2. I've never said the CPC is to the left. I've said its to the left in the Norwegian context. Because if you compare the CPC to the Norwegian parties its to the left... However, you can't use that as a basis to claim if its on the left or not. The CPC has to be to the left or right of a party / movement in China. That in fact doesn't exist. CPC is not to the left or right of anything because there doesn't exist anything else. You have to be to the left or right of something, the CPC is not to the left or right of anything in the Chinese political context.
  3. Yes it is the point. The difference is that this is a WP:GA and the other articles are not that good, mostly terrible.
  4. I won't. The only one who is disputing it is you.

--TIAYN (talk) 15:14, 24 April 2018 (UTC)

This is one of the rare cases where I'd indeed suggest leaving that parameter empty. There simply is no good way to describe shortly the party's position. Theoretically it's still far-left, but its policies are neoliberal, i.e. right-wing. Let us leave it empty.Miacek and his crime-fighting dog (woof!) 19:25, 24 April 2018 (UTC)

Authoritarian socialism political position

For the record I completely disagree with the nonsensical points that have been raised but for the sake of argument then we go with my compromise proposal, which is that its political position is authoritarian socialist (accompanied by the relevant citations...just to satisfy the captious types) and remove the left-wing/far-left description; either way it makes no sense to remove (purge) the political position item from the infobox. Wingwraith (talk) 20:48, 24 April 2018 (UTC)

@Wingwraith: Authoritarian socialism is a made up term, and is not a scholarly term... Most of the sources in the article refers to Marxism-Leninism and its deviations.. That article should be deleted and should not be included in this article. Never. --TIAYN (talk) 21:47, 25 April 2018 (UTC)
Authoritarian socialism is a scholarly term (See for example: Naughton, Barry. 2017. "Is China Socialist?" Journal of Economic Perspectives, 31 (1): 3-24. DOI: 10.1257/jep.31.1.3) and a position that can be mapped onto the political compass (you should know this because you use the political compass to derive your political orientation which you display in one of your infoboxes on your talkpage.) As I said I understand that you are pro-CPC so it would make sense that you would try to eliminate any mention of its political position but that really is no excuse for refusing to compromise by resorting to these ridiculous arguments. It's a complete fucking crock what you are doing and I will not stand for it. Wingwraith (talk) 23:57, 25 April 2018 (UTC)
@Wingwraith: You can add authoritarian and socialism into one term, but is it a scholarly concept? No. It is a term with much depth? No.
I am not pro CPC. I am pro the Norwegian Labour Party, a social democrat my whole life and a pro democrat. So yeah, you are way wrong. Do you want to see my party card as well? --TIAYN (talk) 05:14, 26 April 2018 (UTC)
Don't be ridiculous there's an article on authoritarian socialism and I've already given you a citation from an academic journal that references that concept. What your infatuation with the CPC is telling you is or isn't a scholarly concept is irrelevant. You're free to ignore what I've written but as you're the one who brought this whole political tag objection up in the first place, it's YOUR responsibility to escalate the dispute resolution process. Wingwraith (talk) 00:16, 28 April 2018 (UTC)
@Wingwraith: There is a consensus on this page Wingwraith. Everyone disagrees with you. See this discussion and the one below. Stop forcing everyone. I'm not wasting my time any longer. The consensus, as you see from this discussion, is to remove position and all the ideologies, in addition to factually inaccurate information in the infobox. The CPC doesn't have a student wing for instance.
You lost, no one agrees with you.--TIAYN (talk) 06:40, 28 April 2018 (UTC)
Stop the deception already there's no consensus to remove anything except some of the ideologies in the previous version of the article (see below). It doesn't matter what you personally think (e.g. "The CPC doesn't have a student wing for instance." which is something that you actually have to prove) just like how it doesn't matter that I personally think that your ideal society is a shithole that's run by fascists, what matters are the facts of what you've done here in the (virtual) public which is to refuse every opportunity to engage constructively. Like I said, you are free to do that, but it's your responsibility to escalate the dispute resolution process as you're the one who brought this whole political tag objection up in the first place.
@113.128.146.247 and Vif12vf: In lieu of that user's continued refusal to co-operate and the need to move this debate forward, can you two comment on the dispute above? I understand that the two of you have been active in the thread below, so your input here would be welcomed. Wingwraith (talk) 12:52, 2 May 2018 (UTC)
Most socialist regimes have been considered authoritarian. Thus "authoritarian socialism" is not a separate concept. This is why the democratic version is called Democratic socialism and not just Socialism. As for the position of the CCP, all marxist-leninists and communists regard themselves as either just left-wing or in some occasions as far-left, radical left or even extreme left. It is also common for the position of parties on wikipedia not to be based on where the party stands in comparison to other parties of the same country (the CCP is not the only political party in China. The position of a party is usually more in line with a non-official international standard in which communist parties are usually left-wing whereas social democratic parties are usually center-left. Unless the CCP has any official ideologies that would put them on another part of the political spectrum (like Conservatism) then i would say the CCP by all means belong somewhere on the left. But lastly, no, "authoritarian socialism" is by no means a separate thing from normal socialism, and even if it were, it would be an ideology and not a political position. Tiberius Jarsve (talk) 13:39, 2 May 2018 (UTC)
1) "Unless the CCP has any official ideologies that would put them on another part of the political spectrum (like Conservatism) then i would say the CCP by all means belong somewhere on the left." I will take it that you wouldn't object to/would support a description of the CPC as left-wing/far-left in its infobox on the main article.
2) But the term authoritarian socialism denotes a political position it's a position that can be mapped onto the political compass (specifically the NW quadrant) and it isn't tautological if it was there wouldn't be academic articles (e.g.: Naughton, Barry. 2017. "Is China Socialist?" Journal of Economic Perspectives, 31 (1): 3-24. DOI: 10.1257/jep.31.1.3) which employ and an article which explicates that concept. You'll also note that the tautological objection is internally defeasible through your own ideas: we need the term authoritarian socialism to distinguish those socialist polities that are authoritarian from those that aren't (which must exist because you only said that most socialist regimes have been considered authoritarian and for which your reference to democratic socialism and analogous discussion of left-wing and center-left parties are further proofs of that proposition.) Wingwraith (talk) 14:31, 2 May 2018 (UTC)
@Wingwraith:... If you had read closely below Vif12vf wrote "having only Communism and socialism with Chinese characteristics in the infobox like before people began to split up the ideology seems like the best decision"
In addition, swearing is a blockable offense, accusing me of communism and now fascism is very interesting...
Do I need to say more? --TIAYN (talk) 13:41, 2 May 2018 (UTC)
@Vif12vf: I agree with what Vif12vf wrote there. The question is not if a movement or left or right, but if it has a position in the political spectrum... Having other parties don't really matter in the Chinese circumstance because they all support, and fall in life. They all support what the CPC support with minimal variations... But yes, generally Marxist–Leninists are left-wing and the CPC does call itself a left force. But its not left in the context of a political position but because of ideology. Hard to word. --TIAYN (talk) 13:44, 2 May 2018 (UTC)
Comment: Prospective contributors to this section of the talkpage should note that three further editors (@Icarosaurvus: ([1], [2]), @Indy beetle: ([3]) and @Mr rnddude: ([4])) disagree with TIAYN's assertion that authoritarian socialism is not a scholarly term. Wingwraith (talk) 03:47, 6 May 2018 (UTC)
Political descriptor RFC

Should a political description item be included in the Communist Party of China's infobox and, if so, should this political descriptor be left-wing/far-left, authoritarian socialist or a combination of the two? Wingwraith (talk) 05:30, 5 May 2018 (UTC)

Per the tentative result of this RFC, the rest of the above, the discussion below and WP editing guidelines, I've restored a modified version of the article that existed prior to TIAYN's editing warring. Wingwraith (talk) 05:51, 12 May 2018 (UTC)

  • Include pretty standard really when there’s a wealth of info which falls into categories universally shared with other articles of its nature. Lots of the stuff being contended (above and below) is problematic as lots of their so called positions and manefestoes are basically party slogans and “branding”. With apologies for the poor comparison, nut-job supremacists self-titling themselves identitarian on their related article is an example of similar terminology which people frequently want to kick out of info boxes on other articles. Not having time to comment on each issue individually I’d say, generally be wary of putting something into an info box which falls under this heading of “branding” (and would require in-text attribution which can’t be given in the space provided in an info box). Edaham (talk) 01:26, 13 May 2018 (UTC)
  • OPPOSE --TIAYN (talk) 09:46, 14 May 2018 (UTC)
@Wkbreaker:, @DOR (HK): @Soman: @Zanhe: @Edaham:: Can you please comment and be finished with this? --TIAYN (talk) 09:46, 14 May 2018 (UTC)
Note that the sources used to reference Authoritarian socialist don't actually use the term "Authoritarian socialism" in any of the articles (check for yourself):
  • Ruan, Lotus Yang. "The Chinese Communist Party and Legitimacy". The Diplomat. Retrieved 2015-09-30.
  • Gitter, David. "China Sells Socialism to the Developing World". The Diplomat. Retrieved 2017-10-28.
  • Corr, Anders. "Remove Maduro, And China, Send $80 Billion In Emergency Aid To Venezuela". Forbes.
  • Naughton, Barry (February 2017). "Is China Socialist?". Journal of Economic Perspectives. 31 (1): 3–24. doi:10.1257/jep.31.1.3.


Also note the following changes to the infobox:

  • I removed International Communist Seminar - it hasn't been active for years.... there is not a tradition in WP to add every historical group a party was affiliated with (and non do).. the majority of social democratic parties in Western Europe don't say they were members of the Comintern either for example.
  • Removed State Council from seats - I know of no other party articles which list the number of cabinet members.. especially not in uniform, non-coalition governments
  • Removed the CMC. Its a party organ - why is it surprising that the party has all the members?
  • National Supervisory Commission is the same institution as the Central COmmission for Discipline INspection.. Its part of the party's policy of having one institution, two signs.
  • Judicial seats... again, I know you have this in some US articles, because they are directly elected. I know of no other party articles which have these. Its a reason for that. And again, its the CPC, its China.
  • CPPCC National Committee - maybe its noteworthy, maybe
  • I replaced People's Liberation Army (formerly Red Army, 8th Route Army, New 4th Army, etc.) with People's Liberation Army .... its about the current CPC, not a history lession. Thats why we both have a history section and a history article on the CPC and the PLA.
  • Slogans.. As far I know, the CPC does not have an official slogan.
  • All-China Federation of Trade Unions is not a CPC organ. Its officially a non-government assocation... which in China means its formally separate... The communist party does not formally exist in China, and none of it organs formally exist... So if something formally exists its usually either a party-state organ or a non-party institution.
  • United Front.... Its not a popular front, its a name of a Central Committee Department...
  • All-China Women's Federation... Again, not a CPC body.. Its former name was "All-China Women's Federation of the People's Republic of China".. It is also, formally, an NGO.
  • All-China Youth Federation is not part of the CPC, and is also an NGO... The Young Pioneers of China is part of the Communist Youth League, and is administered by the COmmunist Youth League.
  • All-China Students' Federation is an NGO.
  • Central Policy Research Office is not a think tank. Its an organ of the Central Committee.... It doesn't even fit the definition on WIkipedia.
  • The Internationale is not the de facto anthem of the CPC. It plays the national anthem way more than it does "The Internationale". Where is the source for this?
Per Wikipedia:Verifiability WIkipedia does not do Wikipedia:No original research.. ... those policies have been reached by Wikipedia:Consensus... So a user cannot add them without actually sourcing that information per the aformentioned policies. --TIAYN (talk) 10:01, 14 May 2018 (UTC)
This discussion is tedious. It appears that infoboxes attract certain demographic of editors, whose primary focus is stacking a seemingly endless list of labels in 'ideology' or 'position'. The solution is fairly simple: Stick to broad and uncontroversial concepts (in this case "Communism" and leaving "Position" blank) and avoid that the infobox tries to explain every potential shade of a complex entity. --Soman (talk) 11:09, 14 May 2018 (UTC)
@Soman:, @Wingwraith:, @DOR (HK): and @Trust Is All You Need: Wingwraith, there are two important points that must be underlined. First of all, you absolutely want to mention a political position in order to satisfy infoboxes' captions. It's not a mandatory task, there are a lot of parties which haven't their positions documented in their infoboxes (e.g. Democratic Party (United States), Republican Party (United States), Libertarian Party (United States), Lao People's Revolutionary Party, Communist Party of Chile, Communist Party of Spain etc.). For the US Democrats and Republicans, political position field were left empty for the same reasons as here (many users who disagree with each other), while we can easily find sources who describe Obama Democrats' as centrists or centre-left and right-wing for Republicans (far-right for xenophobic and authoritarian pro-Trump faction).
So it's not a good idea to impose a version which isn't more consensual than the other : currently, there are at least five users who are in favor of remove (Miacek, TIAYN, Zahne, DOR (HK) and Soman), while only two (the anonymous user and you) or three (with Wkbreaker but he prefers centre-right to far-right description so he partially disagrees with you) who are for maintaining political position, so there's de facto a majority for remove. Consensus doesn't mean unanimity, nobody here has a veto power unlike five permanent members of UN Security Council. As for me, I'm rather for leaving the political position field empty (so nearly six users against), but I'm not opposed to mention it if it's correctly sourced (as I said few days ago). Authoritarian socialism is sourced and contrary to TIAYN, I think that it's a scholarly term, nevertheless it's rather an ideology than a position : for Libertarian Party (United States), nobody mention Libertarian Right as a political position of the party. Positions recognized on political spectrum are far-left (in Western Europe they divide this category between maoists/anarchists/revolutionary extreme left and reformist parties like Podemos/Die Linke which are rather radical left), left-wing, centre-left, centre, centre-right, right-wing and far-right. Even Third Position or Syncretic aren't really recognized as positions on political spectrum, mostly for Third Position which has no equivalent elsewhere in the world (even in Western Europe where they only speak about Third Way like in France where the translation Troisième position is never used by scholars, medias and so on), syncretism is mainly used for religions, philosophy... --Martopa (talk) 19:23, 14 May 2018 (UTC)
Thanks @Martopa:! I don't care if you agree with me or not, but you're comment was VERY VERY helpful! :D Alas @Wingwraith: As mentioned above, you have to prove that the All-China Women's Federation is part of the CPC not me... I've asked for a source, per Wikipedia:Verifiability and Wikipedia:No original research....
As for vote stacking... those people participated in the last debate... thats not vote stacking, thats getting the participants involved. --TIAYN (talk) 20:47, 14 May 2018 (UTC)
but @Martopa: the references he use don't use the term authoritarian socialism (or socialist authoritarianism or something similar)... even if you agree with him or not, you do see the problem with that? --TIAYN (talk) 20:48, 14 May 2018 (UTC)
@Martopa:
1) TIAYN now at least in principle supports the inclusion of the descriptor per this edit where s/he said, "As long as you state clearly to Wingwraith he can't add factual innaccuracies, and especially contentious information to the infobox, I'm fine with the left-wing position in the infobox." (Italics added for emphasis).
2) There's an even split on the issue of whether to keep the political descriptor item (me, Edaham, 113.128.150.197, Vif12vf, Wkbreaker and TIAYN) vs (you, Miacek, Carrite, Zahne, DOR (HK) and Soman). In any case you should keep in mind that when it comes to disagreements like this, Wikipedia isn't about counting heads.
3) Authoritarian socialism is a political position it can be mapped onto the political compass (it doesn't have to be just where it falls on the political compass), unlike the third party position that you mentioned the term is self-contained (particularly in its cartographical manifestation) and has a definitive political form. At least the distinction between an ideology and position is not as unambiguous as you are making it out to be. In any case, we already have multiple sources which refer to the CPC as authoritarian socialist so unless you are going to tell me pace your comments about the positions recognized on political spectrum that socialism is an ideology that is not located on the left side of the political spectrum, this point of yours is a non-starter.
4) "So it's not a good idea to impose a version which isn't more consensual than the other." That applies to you too so the guidelines (e.g. WP:BRD) in that case recommend that we revert the article back to the condition that it was in before this edit warring formally began. It began on 09:42, 2 January 2018 with this edit as you can also see from the time stamp of the OP for the master sub-section (Left wing / far left) of this Political descriptor RFC section, so we revert the article back to the state that it last existed in prior to that edit which included the political descriptor. Wingwraith (talk) 02:45, 15 May 2018 (UTC)
5) You had restored the political description item in the infoboxes of other articles (e.g. [6], [7], and [8]) even though the descriptors had not been sourced, so why should you approach this article any differently? Wingwraith (talk) 06:26, 15 May 2018 (UTC)
@Wingwraith: I don't support in principle the inclusion of left-wing because it bogus! Remove the political position and remove authoritarian socialism - which isn't even referenced! You are, as you've always been, in the minority. --TIAYN (talk) 05:12, 15 May 2018 (UTC)
And you are dead wrong on part 4)... per WP:verifiability and WP:No original research we can remove most of the changes you added to the infobox because its not referenced, not sourced... You are breaching the rules. --TIAYN (talk) 05:22, 15 May 2018 (UTC)
"As long as you state clearly to Wingwraith he can't add factual innaccuracies, and especially contentious information to the infobox, I'm fine with the left-wing position in the infobox." (Italics added for emphasis) It doesn't get clearer than that and you don't get to just change your opinions on the fly. Drop the stick already. Wingwraith (talk) 06:26, 15 May 2018 (UTC)
@Wingwrait: I have not changed my opinion... My opinion has been consistent throughout. The most important thing for me is to remove the most blatant factual inaccuracies from the infobox. When that is done I can focus on removing the political position.... But the priority is to remove the factual inaccuracies you've added... And fine does not mean support, it just means I can live it if everything goes to hell.... and yes, I do have a right, as a human being, to change my position on the fly—I have not done it in this instance, but if I did, that would be OK. --TIAYN (talk) 07:26, 15 May 2018 (UTC)
No the quote speaks for itself: "As long as you state clearly to Wingwraith he can't add factual innaccuracies, and especially contentious information to the infobox, I'm fine with the left-wing position in the infobox." (Italics added for emphasis). Pretty clear and unambiguous. You can try to spin it all you want, but there's no denying that you said what you meant and meant what you said since you weren't writing it to me but to an administrator (@SarekOfVulcan:). You do not have the right to change your opinions on the fly, you get to change them only after you've provided a sufficient reason for doing so (which you haven't). Wingwraith (talk) 07:44, 15 May 2018 (UTC)

@Wingwraith: The fact that you believe that you know better than I what I intended with my message says very much about you..... This Stalinistic impulse of yours have to stop. I am of the same position as always, remove the political positiosn because it does not make sense... Authoritarian socialism is not a separate scholarly term - its synonymous with socialist state (not an ideology even) and Marxism–Leninism (and its deviations)... I couldn't be less supportive of you and you're position. --TIAYN (talk) 08:48, 15 May 2018 (UTC)

Drop the stick and let it go already. It's not about what anybody here believes it's about what has actually been done. You've already admitted that you are fine with keeping the political descriptor in the box ("As long as you state clearly to Wingwraith he can't add factual innaccuracies, and especially contentious information to the infobox, I'm fine with the left-wing position in the infobox." (Italics added for emphasis)) and the overwhelming consensus from the discussion above is that authoritarian socialism is a scholarly term. At this point you are just stonewalling. Wingwraith (talk) 23:51, 15 May 2018 (UTC)
@Wingwraith: You are a stupid man... You are fine with me "changing" position out of the blue if I support you, but I can't do it if I oppose you...
Nope, authoritarian socialism is not a separate scholarly term... its proven with the fact that you're references don't even use the term... more interestingly, one of you're sources conclude that China is not socialist... so how could that source define China as authoritarian socialist?? Its so fucking stupid, but you are stupid and stubborn
You are WP:STONEWALLING.. Instead of having a discussion, you're saying "you can't do that"... "you can't disagree with me"... Its pathetic. --TIAYN (talk) 05:15, 16 May 2018 (UTC)
"As long as you state clearly to Wingwraith he can't add factual innaccuracies, and especially contentious information to the infobox, I'm fine with the left-wing position in the infobox." (Italics added for emphasis). Pretty clear and unambiguous position that indicates your support for the inclusion of the descriptor. And there are five editors (me, Icarosaurvus, Indy beetle, Mr rnddude and Martopa) who disagree with your assertion that authoritarian socialism is not a scholarly term, which is supported by yourself and just one other editor (Vif12vf). Again drop the stick and move on already. Wingwraith (talk) 06:04, 16 May 2018 (UTC)
@Wingwraith: You are lying, @Vif12vf: wrote this above: "But lastly, no, "authoritarian socialism" is by no means a separate thing from normal socialism, and even if it were, it would be an ideology and not a political position" --TIAYN (talk) 06:13, 16 May 2018 (UTC)
Yes but that's not the point the point is that there are five editors (me, Icarosaurvus, Indy beetle, Mr rnddude and Martopa) who disagree with your assertion that authoritarian socialism is not a scholarly term, which is supported by yourself and Vif12vf. You have to read what other people write first before you start writing. Wingwraith (talk) 06:31, 16 May 2018 (UTC)
Considering the fact that all communist governments in socialist states have been authoritarian in nature, i see no reason as to why the CCP out of all communist parties should be the only one with "authoritarian socialism" in the infobox. Socialism, at least the primarily marxist kind is itself against the kind of "democracy" that excists within capitalist and social democratic states, and is thus considered authoritarian. Authoritarian socialism is thus not a separate concept from the ideology itself, and it is not a position, position implies left to right and/or third position. Furthermore, if somebody seriously wants to split authoritarian socialism out of the core ideologies of the CCP then the same should be done with the three other communist parties ruling socialist states, furthermore it should be done to every formerly governing party of this kind as well. However this is just ridiculous. The CCP is not that much more authoritarian than the CPC, the CPV and the LPRP, but nobody claims that they follow "authoritarian socialism". Wether the party may be given a left-right position at all may be discussed, but "authoritarian socialism" does not belong in the infobox. There is a reason we say Democratic socialism and not just socialism! Tiberius Jarsve (talk) 11:55, 16 May 2018 (UTC)
There's already consensus on this, authoritarian socialism is a scholarly term. Wingwraith (talk) 06:20, 17 May 2018 (UTC)
Edit: And do not include "authoritarian socialist"—this is not a description you will find used anywhere, and one which users have invented in the preceding discussion. Endymion.12 (talk) 11:08, 16 July 2018 (UTC)


My face when a consensus of white liberals in the west are the arbiters of truth on this matter. This is Wikipedia in a nutshell. I bet you don't even realize how problematic this is. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.185.38.232 (talk) 05:26, 21 September 2018 (UTC)

My face when somebody adds a comment onto an obvious no-consensus squabble from July and calls it a consensus just so that they can assume the participants are A) all white or B) all liberals. Especially editing from an IP from that hotbed of Third-Worldism, Scottsdale Arizona. I mean... welcome to Wikipedia! Simonm223 (talk) 17:50, 21 September 2018 (UTC)

Maoism

Does the CCP still officially adhere to Marxism-Leninism-Maoism? Or did they drop it after Mao’s death? I am asking because I believe Maoism should be added to the CCP’s ideology. The History Nerd5 (talk) 15:18, 12 September 2018 (UTC)

We were discussing that in the last section. Maoism was not officially renounced, but its errors were corrected and new ideas added, according to the CPC. People who refused to accept the changes were expelled from the party. TFD (talk) 15:28, 12 September 2018 (UTC)

Please read the previous posts, particularly this: “The Communist Party of China uses Marxism-Leninism, Mao Zedong Thought, Deng Xiaoping Theory, the Theory of Three Represents, the Scientific Outlook on Development, and Xi Jinping Thought on Socialism with Chinese Characteristics for a New Era as its guides to action.” DOR (HK) (talk) 16:10, 27 September 2018 (UTC)

Historically Inaccurate information

"The CPC is committed to communism and continues to participate in the International Meeting of Communist and Workers' Parties each year."

The above statement without proper citation is indeed negation of facts. The CPC is as much capitalist as any other capitalist party, for example in their recent congress they affirmed that, "The core principle of economic reform is the “decisive” (决定性) role of market forces in allocating resources (previous Party decisions gave the market a “basic” (基础）role in resource allocation." See link here

Furthermore, recently their exporting of massive financial capital overseas and suppressing countries through debt trap policy categorise themselves as Imperialists or call Social Imperialists.

The editors heavily used reference of Wong 2005 which is based on second-hand information and totally wrong description of history. Similarly, Mao wrote in New Democracy, "The first step is to change the colonial, semi-colonial and semi-feudal form of society into an independent, democratic society. The second is to carry the revolution forward and build a socialist society. At present, the Chinese revolution is taking the first step. " https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/mao/selected-works/volume-2/mswv2_26.htm

Mao himself never resorted to Proletariat Dictatorship rather it was a peasant revolution. In which CCP has not mobilized the worker masse rather deformed workers state born.

The whole article reflects the so-called official policy of the Chinese Govt. I think a room should be given to improve it and add correct historical facts.

Umar shahid (talk) 16:27, 10 December 2018 (UTC)

I would suggest that reliable sources would help with your complaint. What sources do you propose to support your edit? Simonm223 (talk) 16:54, 10 December 2018 (UTC)

I think due to the historical significance and present relevancy of the topic, primary publications like Mao's New Democracy book, his speeches, CPC documents and authors of that period should be used instead of third or forth.Umar shahid (talk) 18:32, 10 December 2018 (UTC)

I'm in favor of using official documents whenever available. Otherwise, it's just editorializing. DOR (HK) (talk) 18:13, 11 December 2018 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 26 December 2018

Change "The objective was to clear 'Central China, strengthening North China, and recovering Northeast China.'[30]" to "The objective was to 'clear Central China, strengthen North China, and recover Northeast China.'[30]"

The reason is that "clear" belongs to the quotation and all forms should be the same, i.e. infinitive. CRau080 (talk) 20:21, 26 December 2018 (UTC)

 Partly done: I was unable to find the original quotation on the web, so I'm not messing with it. I have fixed the grammar. If you can provide the full original quotation from the source (and a link to it, ideally), that would help. – Jonesey95 (talk) 01:23, 27 December 2018 (UTC)

Left wing, again

I thought we'd settled on left-wing instead of far-left but now there's dispute over that position apparently; Helper201 can you please explain your objection to the label? Simonm223 (talk) 13:55, 26 September 2018 (UTC)

I will note you have a history of objecting to calling various parties socialist, etc. so please let's avoid no-true-Scotsman stuff. Simonm223 (talk) 13:56, 26 September 2018 (UTC)

When moving from Maoism to whatever you want to call China today, the typical explanation on a left-right political spectrum would be "that's a move to the right." DOR (HK) (talk) 16:11, 27 September 2018 (UTC)

I think one would be hard-pressed to call Xi Jinping Thought right-wing or centrist. Simonm223 (talk) 17:19, 27 September 2018 (UTC)
A careful reading of what I actually wrote will reveal that we're not on the same subject.DOR (HK) (talk) 18:40, 5 October 2018 (UTC)
Where did you get the idea this was settled? Let alone settled to left-wing, because there was never consensus for that. My objection is due to the non-consensus around that matter that is laid out on this talk page. There has been serious debate around this where no consensus has been formed. I have no objection to labeling parties as socialist, but that is besides the point here. We are debating position, not ideology. Burden is on those adding information, not removing information that is not cited and where there is active disagreement. These matters should be resolved with consensus and then when consensus is achieved information can be added. Contested information should not be retained on the article without consensus. Helper201 (talk) 05:26, 28 September 2018 (UTC)
Suggest you consult the discussion at Left wing / Far Left Wing - and then put down the WP:STICK Simonm223 (talk) 12:19, 28 September 2018 (UTC)
Look, if we can't agree on something this basic then I suggest opening it to an RFC. The question will be pretty simple: "Should the Communist Party of China be described as: A) Left Wing B) Far-Left Wing C) Centrist D) Right Wing E) Far-Right Wing?" We can put it on Wikiproject China and Wikiproject Politics to get responses from neutral parties. OK? Simonm223 (talk) 12:24, 28 September 2018 (UTC)
I vote for ‘’none of the above,’’ since the labels make no sense in the context of China today.DOR (HK) (talk) 02:48, 29 September 2018 (UTC)
When I see the term far left it normally means either fringe groups particularly left-wing terrorists or (in U.S. conservative writing) Clinton Democrats, the New York Times or people who shop at Whole Foods. Like similar terms it only is meaningful in context, which an info-box does not provide. TFD (talk) 02:06, 29 September 2018 (UTC)
  • As I mentioned in the RFC below, at a bare minimum their left / right politics would need to be unambiguously mentioned and cited in the article text before it could go in a template. The article text is where we'd put the citations and discussions; and the standard for putting it in the article text (where we can provide context and discuss any disagreement) is much lower than putting it in the template. Putting it in the template when nothing in the article mentions it is putting the cart before the horse. If it's so obvious, it should be easy to find sources specifically discussing it sufficient to elaborate into a few sentences in the ideology section; instead, as I mentioned below, the lead sentence of the ideology section clearly indicates there's substantial debate that they have no ideology, while nothing there currently mentions left or right politics at all. --Aquillion (talk) 21:21, 5 October 2018 (UTC)


RFC: Political Orientation of Communist Party of China

Consensus is None, i.e to leave the Position field in the infobox blank. Galobtter (pingó mió) 15:28, 11 November 2018 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Should the Communist Party of China be described as:

  • Left Wing
  • Far-Left Wing
  • Centrist
  • Right Wing
  • Far-Right Wing?

Simonm223 (talk) 16:14, 28 September 2018 (UTC)

  • Left Wing - While a case could be made that the CPC is not a far-left party, I think it'd be hard to characterize Xi Jinping Thought as anything other than a leftist political philosophy and I find the arguments against boil down to No True Scotsman Simonm223 (talk) 16:16, 28 September 2018 (UTC)
  • None of the above I'd go with "authoritarian". They don't seem to have any particular ideology beyond staying in power and crushing any dissent. Number 57 18:00, 28 September 2018 (UTC)
  • None Eliminate the field from the info-box, which provides no meaningful information. Since different people will define left wing, far left, center left, etc., differently, the information provided will be contentious at best. Just tell readers that the party's official ideology is "Xi Jinping Thought on Socialism with Chinese Characteristics for a New Era," explain in the article what that is and let each reader map it onto their own perception of the left-right continuum. TFD (talk) 22:42, 28 September 2018 (UTC)
  • None. The first sentence of the ideology section: It has been argued in recent years, mainly by foreign commentators, that the CPC does not have an ideology, and that the party organization is pragmatic and interested only in what works. That would seem to support no entry; furthermore, there's no mention in that section of the right / left spectrum. If we were going to put it in the template, we'd need to have at least a sentence or two there mentioning it. --Aquillion (talk) 01:09, 29 September 2018 (UTC)
  • NONE.DOR (HK) (talk) 02:49, 29 September 2018 (UTC)
  • None of the above None of those are accurate/helpful descriptions. "Left-wing"/"far-left" is inappropriate in a Chinese context; just leave the field empty. Endymion.12 (talk) 17:55, 29 September 2018 (UTC)
  • NONE. Helper201 (talk) 10:40, 2 October 2018 (UTC)
  • CommunistApparently they consider them selves that. Arcillaroja (talk) 12:54, 3 October 2018 (UTC)
  • Far-left and Communist. This is still their official ideological and political position, especially when compared with political parties in the two SARs of Hong Kong and Macau, as well as with parties in the breakaway region of Taiwan and some banned parties on the mainland. Vif12vf/Tiberius (talk) 13:22, 3 October 2018 (UTC)
  • None of the above - the infobox already says "Chinese Communism," and I think that is as clear as we are going to be able to get. The party's ideology is pragmatic and mostly concerned with maintaining a grip on power, so it can't easily be placed on a left-right spectrum.--Danaman5 (talk) 02:49, 6 October 2018 (UTC)
  • Summoned by bot. As an experienced RFC closer, I'm very tempted to just close this RFC early. It's quite obviously not going to yield any affirmative result for left or right. Has everyone forgotten that No Original Research and Verifiability are policies? I don't see a single Reliable Source cited in the RFC nomination, not one cited in the entire discussion below it, and I couldn't find any in the preceding Talk page discussions. I suggest the RFC be closed/withdrawn or otherwise put out of its misery.
    None, unless and until multiple high-quality Reliable Sources are supplied sufficiently supporting a left-right designation. Alsee (talk) 17:10, 6 October 2018 (UTC)
  • None. As there is no effective opposition (and hasn't been for ages), placing the party on a right/left scale lacks any real comparison. Furthermore, their position on such a scale may be construed differently in the 2010s in comparison to during the cultural revolution. Icewhiz (talk) 13:06, 7 October 2018 (UTC)
  • Follow the sources (Summoned by bot) - from what I'm reading here it looks like one editor "feels" that the party should be described one way, while another "feels" it should be described some other way, but what I don't see anywhere at all is an analysis of what sources actually say about the matter. This isn't how we make content decisions on Wikipedia. None per Alsee, and I'm also tempted to close this as out-of-process. Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 13:51, 9 October 2018 (UTC)
@Ivanvector: Actually, please don't close this "as out-of-process". This has been the subject of a long-running and very tedious edit-war, and it's about time this is settled. The reason the I, and presumably the other users !voting none didn't provide any sources, is because: i. the burden isn't ours, and ii. there obviously isn't an abundance of sources which state that a left-right designation isn't appropriate in a Chinese context—why would there be? Endymion.12 (talk) 23:35, 9 October 2018 (UTC)
  • No source, no content. It's as simple as that. Like some of the above posters, I'm astounded by the fact that we're even having this conversation. – Finnusertop (talk ⋅ contribs) 02:26, 10 October 2018 (UTC)
  • (Summoned by bot) If you're soliciting community input on a question such as this, it would be tremendously helpful to have a representative sampling of the source material: few people are going to undertake a search by themselves, and folks with less experience with the subject are not going to be able to carry out as good of a survey of the sources, either. Based on a quick and dirty search in google scholar, of the terms presented above, "leftist" seems most closely associated with the party; but "authoritarian" is more common, and there's a very wide variety of sources used. The term I've heard in conversation is "Maoist", but that's not based on any solid sources, either. Vanamonde (talk) 04:47, 10 October 2018 (UTC)
  • None - Summoned by bot - None as per everyone above - I'm inclined to go with "Follow sources" but sources may well conflict each other so as a whole I'd say leave it blank. –Davey2010Talk 18:01, 10 October 2018 (UTC)
  • None, this infobox is already cluttered and sticking "Left-wing" right next to "Ideology: Chinese communism, Marxism-Leninism, Socialism with Chinese characteristics" doesn't add much beyond an easy target for vandals. -165.234.252.11 (talk) 20:02, 22 October 2018 (UTC)
  • None, I'd argue that they are more practising realpolitik than any meaningful ideology. Dark-World25 (talk) 06:15, 23 October 2018 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

So, 2 for left, four without a clear indication and 13 for none. I hope this settles it. DOR (HK) (talk) 22:14, 12 November 2018 (UTC)

Now if only they could use the same logic on the Nazi Party page. Underneaththesun (talk) 03:29, 31 May 2019 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 21 June 2019

Three typo corrections to this article: (1) Section: Symbols; 1st sentence; Change "According to the Article 53..." to "According to Article 53..." by deleting the word "the". (2) Section: Formal Ideology; 4th paragraph; 2nd sentence; Change "... basic Marxist values, supporters viewed..." to "... basic Marxist values. Supporters viewed..." by changing the comma to a period mark and capitalizing 's' in "supporters" (3) Section: Economics; 2nd paragraph; 4th sentence; Change "... party's leaders and theorist argue..." to "... party's leaders and theorists argue..." by adding 's' to "theorist". Goman1 (talk) 21:36, 21 June 2019 (UTC)

 Done Thanks! ComplexRational (talk) 18:41, 22 June 2019 (UTC)

Could we go back to discussing changes here, BEFORE making 10 edits in a row?DOR (HK) (talk) 09:18, 24 August 2019 (UTC)

No longer ML?

Hkfreedomfighter the ref you claimed supported removal of Marxism-Leninism was a paywall for a single FT article. Do you have any compelling reliable sources that can actually be reviewed to support this claim? Simonm223 (talk) 14:27, 16 September 2019 (UTC)


There doesn't seem to be any eeee sources of it being M-L in the first place, I think unless there is (because all the other ideologies have sources to verify) we should remove it - for the mean time Ill remove it unless someone is willing to provide a source for it. + sorry about the pay-wall article Im still learning how to edit on wikipedia :)

--Hkfreedomfighter (talk) 13:56, 26 October 2019 (UTC)

Abbreviation

The official abbreviation is "CPC". It should be kept uniform throughout the article. It could argued that some sources use "CCP", but it is not encyclopedic to cite the state-run Xinhua News Agency and still use the wrong abbreviation, which Xinhua would never use. "CCP" is mostly used by anti-government groups and people with rudimentary knowledge of China who picked it up somewhere due the former's presence on YouTube and on their affiliated websites. Reputable sources would refrain from using this abbreviation. Not only is "Communist Party of China" official, it also sounds more formal than "Chinese Communist Party". Wouldn't it be as preposterous if an individual or a group of like-minded people with a clear agenda thought it would be good idea to abbreviate "Green Party of the United States" as "USGP" instead of "GPUS"? --129.206.226.18 (talk) 10:46, 11 January 2019 (UTC)

You are mistaken that CCP "is mostly used by anti-government groups and people with rudimentary knowledge of China." It is standard in most Western writing on Chinese history and politics, including the leading academic journals such as China Quarterly, and in the majority of books published on modern China. This includes not just popular works, but scholarly works such as David Shambaugh's China's Communist Party: Atrophy and Adaptation. My preference is therefore for CCP, and I have used this in articles I have edited. In any case, even with a "standard" form, quotations should preserve the usage of the original work. If CPC is standard, quotes from Shambaugh cannot change his usage, and if CCP is standard, Xinhua quotes should preserve the XH usage. Rgr09 (talk) 00:34, 12 January 2019 (UTC)
You can be sure that none of the youngsters who know the abbreviation and spread racist comments online have read Shambaugh. They must have got their content from somewhere else. Either way, there is some cleaning up to do. What sources are being referenced and how do these abbreviate? However, it is certainly very odd to read an articles with abbreviations changing back and forth. --94.134.89.100 (talk) 10:02, 12 January 2019 (UTC)

Anyone who can actually READ Chinese will tell you that the two characters indicating “China/Chinese” are followed by the two characters meaning “communist,” and then the single character for “party.” 

C-hinese C-ommunist P-arty: CCP.DOR (HK) (talk) 10:20, 14 January 2019 (UTC)
You can't translate it word for word. DrizzleD (talk) 15:33, 12 April 2020 (UTC)

Wikipedia needs to label this article as propaganda policed by CPC trolls

Article consists almost entirely of propaganda. Of course there is an army of CPC trolls ready to expunge any suggestion that CPC is anything but a totalitarian police state. The word democracy does not belong in this article. When did the CPC have an open democratic election without vetting of candidates and the free press essential to anything called "democracy"? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2607:fea8:1140:5d:cd46:5345:1e4e:23b1 (talk) 20:50, 16 April 2020 (UTC)

Please, note that casting aspersions and personal attacks are not allowed. Editors are expected to participate with a minimum of civility. If you have a specific proposal, you are welcome to open a new thread about it. --MarioGom (talk) 22:13, 16 April 2020 (UTC)
Exactly what does "CPC is anything but a totalitarian police state." mean? The CPC is the party, the PRC is the state. Acalycine (talk) 06:53, 23 April 2020 (UTC)
I feel like the person saying this probably saw the description for Democratic Centralism and completely missed the point of it as a Leninist doctrine. 103.255.24.6 (talk) 00:03, 6 May 2020 (UTC)

unsourced changes

Aman.kumar.goel, Please cite your sources. Here's mine: Military, Indian Armed Forces, and List of countries by number of military and paramilitary personnel. Over to you. DOR (HK) (talk) 06:36, 15 May 2020 (UTC)

Criticism and dissent section?

Why isn't there one? This hardly seems like an objective, well-rounded overview of the CCP - which is what the average internetter is looking for when they come here, right?Oathed (talk) 14:11, 28 June 2020 (UTC)

Let's start with the most obvious reason: you haven't written a C&D section. DOR (HK) (talk) 12:43, 29 June 2020 (UTC)

Parts of this article reads like propaganda

The tone and style of this article is not something I have seen anywhere else in Wikipedia, for instance:

Since taking power, Xi has initiated the most concerted anti-corruption effort in decades, while centralizing powers in the office of CPC general secretary at the expense of the collective leadership; because of that, foreign commentators have likened him to Mao.[60] Xi's leadership has also overseen an increase of party's role in China.[61] Xi has added his ideology, named after himself, into the CPC constitution in 2017, a feat unaccomplished by his two predecessors.

This text not only fails to follow WP:MOS but also WP:V. 24.35.77.217 (talk) 17:56, 1 July 2020 (UTC)

Can you be more specific about which parts are inaccurate? DOR (HK) (talk) 16:39, 3 July 2020 (UTC)

Marxism–Leninism in CCP

Is there any sources of CCP's ideology being Marxist- Leninist? Its weird that all other Ideologies in the list have references but not M-L, Ill remove it until someones willing to add it with a source

--Hkfreedomfighter (talk) 13:55, 26 October 2019 (UTC)

From the CCP Constitution:

“ The Communist Party of China uses Marxism-Leninism, Mao Zedong Thought, Deng Xiaoping Theory, the Theory of Three Represents, the Scientific Outlook on Development, and Xi Jinping Thought on Socialism with Chinese Characteristics for a New Era as its guides to action.”DOR (HK) (talk) 11:53, 13 April 2020 (UTC)

How does that answer the reviewer's question? "because CPC says so?". The reviewer asked for the sources of the ideology. Anyone with half a brain knows all Mao's ideologies were tossed. This is not a valid source. In fact we know of thousands of examples of marxist and Leninist ideas being completely expunged.15:32, 19 May 2020 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2605:E000:1319:4E17:1C7C:DF12:A7C1:8C1F (talk)
It answers the question absolutely. The ideology of the party is ML, because that's what they describe themselves as. We're not discussing whether the CPC is "truly" ML here, but that is certainly a viable and interesting question that could be included in the article (when backed up by extensive research, sourcing, etc., could be titled as "Accusations of revisionism" or something like that). For example, we wouldn't say that the Conservative Party (UK) is not conservative, because they describe themselves as such and not including this classification would violate WP:NPOV. Acalycine (talk) 07:15, 14 July 2020 (UTC)

Requested move 16 July 2020

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Consensus to move page. (non-admin closure) — YoungForever(talk) 20:21, 23 July 2020 (UTC)


Communist Party of China → Chinese Communist Party – CCP is preferred by HQRS Nutez (talk) 20:13, 16 July 2020 (UTC)

  • information Administrator note - I have full-protected the article for longer than the expected duration of this discussion, since a few editors can't seem to stop edit-warring over this title change. When the discussion concludes please restore the previous protection level, or if closed by a non-admin, please ping me and I will do it. Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 19:45, 22 July 2020 (UTC)
We name articles based on the most common English-language name, not by the official name, and "CCP" and "Chinese Communist Party" is the more common English name. Rreagan007 (talk) 01:33, 17 July 2020 (UTC)
High quality reliable sources, I think. Acalycine (talk)
  • Support per WP:COMMONNAME in English, especially in academic sources. Amigao (talk) 18:35, 17 July 2020 (UTC)
  • Support because no Chinese speaker would use “Communist Party of China” when theofficial name is China/Chinese (Zhongguo) Communist (Gongchan) Party (Dang), which so obviously is CCP. The term “Communist Party of...” arises from academic usage, only. DOR (HK) (talk) 18:37, 18 July 2020 (UTC)
  • Reluctantly support while official name of this party in English is "Communist Party of China" i think use of that name like "Chinese Communist Party" (CCP) look also acceptable as many High Quality Realiable Source (HQRS). CPC acronym used only for official and academic purpose. What the example of HQRS? Is BBC and New York Times and Fox News considered HQRS?36.77.95.9 (talk) 01:57, 19 July 2020 (UTC)
Amigao’s edits have been to the lead not the title, this discussion is about the title. As far as I’m aware the article name and the opening name in the lead don’t have to match and often don't. Horse Eye Jack (talk) 17:33, 22 July 2020 (UTC)
OK, sure. Can editors involved do it properly, though? The note does not match the new version - it is not 'sometimes known' but 'most commonly known' as per this discussion. Besides, this move request can probably be closed early on grounds of WP:AVALANCHE. I propose changing the note as such to: Chinese: 中国共产党; pinyin: Zhōngguó Gòngchǎndǎng; most commonly known in English as the Chinese Communist Party (CCP). Thanks. Acalycine (talk) 22:31, 22 July 2020 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Move Review

I have started a move review on Wikipedia:Move review/Log/2020 July. Please contribute to it, and hopefully we can reach a much wider consensus than we did previously. I'm not aware of Wikipedia Policy on promoting discussions on other Wiki talk pages, but I think we should aim to have a wider range of arguments and views. JMonkey2006 (talk) 23:02, 25 July 2020 (UTC)

Official Name

In the opening paragraph I see this article describes the CPC as the "official" name of the CCP. However, this is uncited, and the note attached to it merely describes the Chinese name.

I tried Googling "CCP official name", and I got nothing back except this article. Encyclopedia Britannica merely lists CPC as an "alternate" name for the CCP, not the "official" name.

I don't have edit permission for this page, but I suggest that a "citation needed" tag should be added after the word "officially".

JosephAlexanderHenderson (talk) 17:00, 1 August 2020 (UTC)

Fixed, thank you. Doanri (talk) 05:42, 4 August 2020 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 06:52, 24 September 2020 (UTC)

Change Title from Chinese Communist Party to Communist Party of China

The name of the ruling party that runs China should be changed. Calling it the "Chinese Communist Party" the far-right and QAnon more ammunition and also gives emphasis to the racial and ethnic nature of the name, and stresses the "otherness" of the party. It's a deliberate racial dog whistling.

Copy-editing

I copy-edited the article but someone should probably check its neutrality. There are some problematic passages too; for example I don't think I understand this passage: "While both Su and Dong agreed that it was the collectivization of agriculture and the establishment of People's Communes which had ended rural exploitation, neither of them sought a return to that era." What era? The era of rural exploitation or the era of collectivization of agriculture? Not clear.

Criticisms

Handling of COVID-19 pandemic

https://thehill.com/blogs/congress-blog/foreign-policy/495911-the-ccp-is-not-to-be-trusted-on-covid-19-response-data

Propaganda favored over freedom of speech:

https://www.cnn.com/2020/08/22/asia/chinas-communist-party-threat-world-intl-hnk/index.html

Persecution of religious minorities:

https://www.state.gov/21st-anniversary-of-the-prc-governments-persecution-of-falun-gong/

— Preceding unsigned comment added by Highcalling777 (talk • contribs) 07:48, 30 September 2020 (UTC)

The first of your sources is an opinion piece, the second is known to be biased (though admittedly not quite as much as some other American media outlets), and the third is a "press statement" by Mike Pompeo, an American Republican. I mostly agree with all three on this topic, but we should find better ones before adding this to the article. Glades12 (talk) 20:42, 20 November 2020 (UTC)

RS

MarkH21 I have to tell you that I did not delete any rs basicly. Just add some. The sources I added are all academic sources from Mainland China, Taiwan, Russia and US. They corrected some factual errors and added many important facts. The names of these scholars or institutions are:

  • Alexander V. Pantsov, Professor of History, Capital University, Ohio
  • Yang Kuisong, Professor of History, CPC Central Party School
  • Chen Yongfa, Professor of History, Academia Sinica, Republic of China
  • Qian Liqun, Professor of Chinese Department of Peking University
  • Institute of Modern History, CASS

··· 芄蘭 (talk) 08:34, 7 January 2021 (UTC)

Political position

I think instead of "far left (disputed)" list it as "Left-wing to far left" like a lot of "goulash communism" parties are (for those who don't know, goulash communism was Hungarian socialism that added elements of market reform to the economy). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.72.201.104 (talk) 18:34, 8 January 2021 (UTC)

Can you provide a reliable source for this? intforce (talk) 15:02, 15 January 2021 (UTC)
There are no reliable sources, since this is purely a judgement call. This section should be left blank: The CCP is neither left nor right, simply because it is not a western entity, and that's where those terms have meaning. DOR (HK) (talk) 15:45, 15 January 2021 (UTC)
The "(disputed)" text was added by 芄蘭 in Special:Diff/993007079, using a page from Chinaworker.info and Capitalism, Alone: The Future of the System That Rules the World. The edit was incorrectly marked as minor. Since Chinaworker.info is not a reliable source and a search through Capitalism, Alone did not reveal anything supporting the position being "disputed", I have reverted the change in Special:Diff/1001766214. — Newslinger talk 06:27, 21 January 2021 (UTC)

Good article reassessment

Communist Party of China

Article (edit | visual edit | history) · Article talk (edit | history) · Watch • Watch article reassessment page • Most recent review
Result: Delisted. No progress for more than 2 months after editors identified deficiencies vs. the GA criteria. (t · c) buidhe 18:18, 22 September 2020 (UTC)

This article is primarily authored by a single editor, who is now ex-communicated for POV-pushing, edit-warring, socking, incivility, etc.

The article is marred by its insistence to always let the CCP have the final word, only allowing for the most superficial criticism of the party. There is next to nothing about its draconian anti-insurgency measures or violent crackdown on political dissidents, let alone its Orwellian surveillance apparatuses and concentration camps in Xinjiang. We don't have the luxury to allow such an important article to completely lose its track and spiral away in abstract MLM-theory and bureaucratic jargon. Nutez (talk) 05:59, 14 July 2020 (UTC)

I think you're overstating the scope of this article. The activities of the CPC you describe are quite extensively covered in other articles, such as Xinjiang re-education camps, Government of China, China, Human rights in China, Cultural genocide of Uyghurs, et cetera. The article should, and is, about the structure, history, ideology, members, and governance of the CPC.
Similarly, I'm not sure of the basis of your apparent fears that the article spiral away in abstract MLM-theory and bureaucratic jargon, considering the article necessarily must use both, by nature of its subject. Jargon can certainly be explained and minimised, but to criticise an article for too much MLM theory when it is about a MLM party is absurd. One last question: when you say The article is marred by its insistence to always let the CCP have the final word, only allowing for the most superficial criticism of the party, could you give some examples? This is an important criticism and I would be grateful to hear it in detail. Danke. Acalycine (talk) 07:03, 14 July 2020 (UTC)
I would say the article as currently written doesn't qualify as GA and might be disruptive, I searched for Shuanggui and its only to be found in the CCP template so we have a big problem here. Horse Eye Jack (talk) 17:47, 14 July 2020 (UTC)
Disruptive in what way? What parts of the original review are flawed exactly? Are you saying Shanggui should be included in the article too? Acalycine (talk) 01:34, 15 July 2020 (UTC)
If Shuanggui isnt included it doesnt pass 3a. Thats a core topic. The GA assessment was also in 2014, there have been thousands of edits to the page since. Horse Eye Jack (talk) 15:55, 15 July 2020 (UTC)
Reviewing the edit history it appears that User:Trust Is All You Need edited the page for a number of years in a manner contrary to WP:OWN. I see prolonged disputes with at least a dozen different editors which Trust Is All You Need gets their way by staying in the game longer not having the stronger argument. Trust Is All You Need is blocked for extreme disruptive editing and quotes such as this one "I will destroy it, and I will get my version on that fucking article.” They have authorship of 59.8% of the current article. Thats a massive problem, we probably need a rewrite. Horse Eye Jack (talk) 16:12, 15 July 2020 (UTC)
Trust Is All You Need also appears to be the reason the article is currently a GA, they appear to have bullied MrWooHoo (who is no longer active) into changing their original review. Horse Eye Jack (talk) 16:52, 15 July 2020 (UTC)
It looks to me like the article is too centered around the party's theoretical ideology (e.g. lede, para. 3:'the Party is committed to communism') and doesn't give enough weight to the concrete applications and consequences of the ideology or to CCP actions that don't follow propaganda points. No GA Doanri (talk) 14:45, 15 July 2020 (UTC)
Agreed, we already have Ideology of the Communist Party of China etc to cover ideology. Horse Eye Jack (talk) 15:56, 15 July 2020 (UTC)
I would heavily disagree with parts of these criticisms, but agree with some. The previous editor does in-fact look problematic, but this of course does not entail an automatic deranking of the article. I have preceded that par 3. line with Officially, it seemed quite biased. However, I don't think that the 'theoretical ideology' of the Party is too central in the article. We do have Ideology of the Communist Party of China, but this does not mean this article should not include a smaller summary of the ideology, which it does. Regarding Shuanggui, I would agree that it should be included here, but I wouldn't necessarily say this precludes the article from meeting 3a - I don't see how a party disciplinary process is core in this sense. We should include it in Governance/Organisation. Regarding the weight of 'concrete applications' and 'consequences', what are some subject areas that we think should have greater weight? Using the same reasoning as Horse Eye Jack's criticisms of ideology being central, I would say that we already have articles on subjects such as Mao's Cultural Revolution and other policies. In saying that, the History section does seem heavily focused on the post-Mao period, which is a drawback. Also, in reference to CCP actions that don't follow propaganda points, can you provide some examples? This would definitely be a cause of concern. Can we have some more references to the original review's criteria and how the current content of the article differs from it? Thanks. Acalycine (talk) 08:40, 17 July 2020 (UTC)
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