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Correct misleading Hamas stmt in introduction

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The introduction says: Islamist militant faction Hamas used the phrase in its 2017 charter. Usage of the phrase by such Palestinian militant groups has led critics to claim that it advocates for the dismantling of Israel ...
If one actually reads paragraph 20 of the 2017 chapter, where "from the river to the sea" appears, it does not talk about the dismantling of Israel.

I'd like a minor edit:
FROM:
Hamas used the phrase in its 2017 charter.
TO:
Hamas used the phrase in paragraph 20 of its 2017 charter, referring to a two-state solution. [FOOTNOTE/REFERENCE]

The footnote/reference can either directly cite paragraph 20 of the Hamas 2017 charter as here, or else directly quote the relevant text in a footnote:
Hamas rejects any alternative to the full and complete liberation of Palestine, from the river to the sea. However, without compromising its rejection of the Zionist entity and without relinquishing any Palestinian rights, Hamas considers the establishment of a fully sovereign and independent Palestinian state, with Jerusalem as its capital along the lines of the 4th of June 1967, ...

The current Wikipedia article seems to entirely ignore the Hamas sentence: However, ... 4th of June 1967, ...
An objective reading of that sentence in the Hamas 2017 charter seems to imply a "two-state solution" based on the borders of "4th of June 1967", while still refusing to recognize the state of Israel. The Hamas 2017 charter certainly does not speak about the "dismantling of Israel". Gene (talk) 22:21, 10 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I think that the current version is better. It simply states that the phrase is mentioned in the charter.
I'm not sure whether you wanted to say that the "phrase" or "paragraph" referred to the two-state solution. If it's the former (phrase) then it's inaccurate, since it's actually in a different sentence.
If it's the latter (paragraph) it wouldn't be neutral. While some scholars believe that Hamas accepted the two-state solution in this document, others disagree with this and say that the "complete liberation of Palestine" remains the goal. This article is not the right place to discuss it. Alaexis¿question? 08:11, 11 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for your comments. Would the following edit be more appropriate?
FROM: Hamas used the phrase in its 2017 charter.
TO: Hamas used the phrase in paragraph 20 of its 2017 charter.
I would change the link to a citation, of course. As you say, it's not the job of Wikipedia to discuss what that paragraph means. But it is the job of Wikipedia to provide the information in a neutral format, and allow the reader to locate the relevant information. Gene (talk) 22:44, 11 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
That's an interesting point Gene. But can you find some WP:SECONDARY sources for this discussion? VR (Please ping on reply) 06:11, 12 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for the comments, VR and Alaexis. To be clear, I agree with Alaexis's point that: "This article is not the right place to discuss [the interpretation of paragraph 20 of the Hamas Charter]." My goal is simply to allow the reader to view the primary source, and then make an individual decision. This should be in keeping with Wikipedia's policy of neutrality.
My primary concern is that the current formulation in Wikipedia loses neutrality, because it is misleading. It currently says:
    Hamas used the phrase in its 2017 charter. Usage of the phrase ... has led critics to claim that it advocates for the dismantling of Israel
This is misleading because critics are referring to much earlier quotes from Hamas. They are not relying on the 2017 charter.
As Alaexis correctly points out, paragraph 20 of the 2017 Charter can be ambiguous. The paragraph includes both of these phrases:
1. Hamas believes that no part of the land of Palestine shall be compromised or conceded, ...
2. Hamas considers the establishment ... along the lines of the 4th of June 1967, ..."
The critics of Hamas are referring to earlier (pre-2017) unambiguous statements by Hamas. It is misleading to say that they are referring to the 2017 Charter.
VR, you asked about secondary sources. Because of the controversy, objective secondary sources are hard to find. I don't recommend this one for Wikipedia, but here's the best that I could find:
from a Vox site. Gene (talk) 15:41, 12 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@VR and Alaexis: (Pinging now; see above) Gene (talk) 15:46, 12 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
If Hamas used the phrase, then its good for inclusion. If they used the phrase in a confusing or contradictory way, that's also valid for inclusion, we shouldn't just rely on a single interpretation of what is meant. Selfstudier (talk) 16:15, 12 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I'm okay with adding a link to the 2017 policies document. Instead of "in paragraph 20" I would write "in the Position toward Occupation and Political Solutions section but that's a minor quibble. Alaexis¿question? 12:52, 14 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@VR and Alaexis:
Thank you Alaexis. This works well. I notice that the new link to the Wikipedia page for the 2017 Hamas charter currently includes:
It advocated for a Palestinian state in the 1967 borders, describing this as a "formula of national consensus", but at the same time strove for the "complete liberation of Palestine, from the river to the sea"
So, the reference to that page achieves the clarification that I was looking for. Gene (talk) 14:46, 14 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, I'd be ok with that formulation. VR (Please ping on reply) 21:48, 14 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Racist statement should be removed

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The following statement

> Many Palestinian activists have called it "a call for peace and equality" after decades of Israeli military rule over Palestinians while for Jews it is seen as a call for the "destruction" of Israel

is in the lead. This seems to me transparently racist as it ascribes a belief to an entire ethnic group. However, interestingly enough, a similar statement is made in the cited AP article (which is odd since I'd expect this to violate their editorial guidelines). Despite this I think it should be removed and replaced with something non-racist. JDiala (talk) 10:51, 13 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

We should try to find another reference because it is unclear what AP means, all Jews, everywhere, Israeli Jews, most Israeli Jews, or what. Selfstudier (talk) 16:13, 13 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I think it is obvious that it means "most Jews everywhere". It is quite common, even in highly reliable sources to say "X" when you mean "most of X". Don't make a mountain out of a mole hill. I thought I already resolved this by adding "most" before "Jews". How did that get removed? Vegan416 (talk) 16:23, 13 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
"Obvious" won't do, that's OR. this is more balanced, it is interesting that Israel's Likud is inspired by the same call in the other direction and I don't hear anyone saying that Palestinians are hearing a call for their own destruction, read apartheid and genocide by a settler colonial state.[1][2] better remove this oversimplification entirely. Selfstudier (talk) 16:33, 13 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
LOL. You "don't hear anyone saying that Palestinians are hearing a call for their own destruction, read apartheid and genocide by a settler colonial state"??? This is said again and again all over the media... Vegan416 (talk) 16:36, 13 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Let's put it in then. Selfstudier (talk) 16:38, 13 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
You are welcome... Vegan416 (talk) 16:40, 13 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ "Israeli far right's plans for expulsion and expansion". Le Monde diplomatique. December 2023. The political-ideological lineage of the Likud party, which Binyamin Netanyahu has run since 2005 (and before that in 1996-99) can be traced back to a fascist-inspired strain of 'revisionist Zionism' which emerged in the interwar period. Before Israel's foundation, this movement campaigned for the Zionist project to incorporate the entire territory of the British mandate on both banks of the Jordan, including Transjordania, which Britain granted to the Hashemite dynasty in 1921, creating present-day Jordan. Later, having focused its ambition on mandatory Palestine, the movement criticised the Zionism favoured by David Ben Gurion's Labour movement (MAPAI), for having stopped fighting in 1949 before it took the West Bank and Gaza.
  2. ^ Assi, Seraj (16 December 2018). "Hamas owes its 'Palestine from the river to the sea' slogan to Zionism". Haaretz. The irony is that it wasn't the Palestinians, but the Zionists, who first invented this "from the river to the sea" mantra. And that was nearly half a century before the First Intifada and the birth of Hamas.

New usage by Israeli gov

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Netanyahu Minister to Nations Recognizing Palestine: 'Only Israel From the River to the Sea' Selfstudier (talk) 16:50, 22 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Cola quote

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Given the status of Mondoweiss as a source WP:MREL I don't think it should be used on this article. Thoughts? MaskedSinger (talk) 10:59, 2 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

No reason not to use it here. IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 11:30, 2 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Merely being Mrel is not a sufficient reason. Selfstudier (talk) 11:15, 7 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

First affirmative ruling in Germany

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Any preference on how it should be included? FortunateSons (talk) 10:51, 7 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I saw that, they fined someone for saying it ("The court concluded that the use of the phrase “could only be understood as a denial of Israel’s right to exist and an endorsement” of Hamas’s October 7 attack" which is obvious rubbish), a ruling that is going to be appealed, so I'd wait for that. Her lawyer said "an assault on free speech" and "a dark day for freedom of expression". One trusts a higher court will agree. Selfstudier (talk) 11:14, 7 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Agreed, the fact that’s it’s likely to be appealed should be included as well. I wouldn’t bet on the appeal going either way, we’ll see. FortunateSons (talk) 11:30, 7 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
You misunderstood me, I don't think it should be included (and maybe not even after it is appealed). Selfstudier (talk) 11:35, 7 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Given how widely it is reported, the fact that a court found it is denial of Israel's right to exist seems WP:DUE?
However, looking at the article, it seems WP:UNDUE to dedicate as many words to Israeli usage as Palestinian? Reliable sources overwhelmingly focus on the latter, and all that is likely to be due in the lede is a passing mention. BilledMammal (talk) 11:38, 7 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, it should be closer in line with how it’s covered by RS, which is overwhelmingly about the use for pro-Palestinian purposes. FortunateSons (talk) 11:42, 7 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Ah, I disagree then, with the speed of German courts, appeals can take years, and there is enough detailed coverage for it to be due. FortunateSons (talk) 11:41, 7 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Ah, I disagree then, with the speed of German courts, appeals can take years Even more reason to exclude. As well, forgotten in a week. Selfstudier (talk) 11:52, 7 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The ruling can both be discussed in media (and maybe even scholarship) and the appeal can take years, those facts are not necessarily contradictory. FortunateSons (talk) 11:54, 7 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
As much as I think such a ruling is utter nonsense to have been handed out. Due to the profile of the case, it is worth including. While the appeal may not occur for an age, I'm sure we will see a couple dozen articles discussing and analysing this result in the coming days/weeks. -- Cdjp1 (talk) 11:52, 7 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Only if they have nothing better to write about. Selfstudier (talk) 11:54, 7 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Is it the first affirmative ruling? Any mention of this (and I am not opposed to mentioning this here) would have to include a paraphrase of the remark made by the defense counsel,.i.e.,

Schließlich verweist die Verteidigung auf einen Vermerk der Berliner Staatsanwaltschaft, nachdem es beim Verwenden der Parole stets auf den Kontext ankomme. Auch das Landgericht Mannheim befasste sich bereits mit „From the river to the sea“ und kam laut Verteidigung zu dem Schluss, dass eine Mehrdeutigkeit vorliege.

This means in short there was a preceding judgment on such an incident which determined that the slogan was ambiguous, and a precise and independent reference to that independent decision (which is alluded to vaguely here) is needed. For all we know, the Mannheim ruling may have closed the case due to the ambiguity, or ruled, as in Berlin, that it is the context which counts for either condemning the person indicted, or letting them off the rap. The Berlin judge said that the context as reconstructed by police reports indicated that the German-Iranian woman was effectively calling for the annihilation of Israel. All of this is bullshit of course, but we have to report significant crap, but only by phrasing it neutrally, and that means bringing in more context, namely an independent reference to the Mannheim case.Nishidani (talk) 12:42, 7 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
How widely reported has the defence’s comment been? BilledMammal (talk) 12:53, 7 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I think the full length would be too much, but a quick reference is fine, though I would paraphrase it by contrasting the relevant factor between this and the two (admin and crim) Mannheim decisions as explanation, basically focusing on the fact that the intended meaning is the factor regarding whether or not it is a crime. someone should stop me if the law stuff gets to bland/detailed
OT: the answer to the question of “when is it illegal” would likely be “it depends”, and one could argue that this person with the defence counsel prejudiced a worse result than a more respected attorney with a less *like that* client would have received. FortunateSons (talk) 13:21, 7 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
In short,

The Mannheim Regional Court ruled in May 2024 that the slogan was not a Hamas symbol, and dismissed opening a criminal case. Three weeks later, in another case, the Higher Administrative Court ruled the opposite way.(Dr. Max Kolter Wie ein Verwaltungsgerichtshof ein Landgericht übergeht Legal Tribune Online 25.June.2024.)

That is the prelude to the Berlin decision, where the judge ruled against the defendant counsel's use of the Mannheim precedent.Nishidani (talk) 13:39, 7 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Wasn’t necessarily a Hamas symbol might be closer to the core here, see this
There are basically three core issues here, each of which may cause prosecution:
-use of terrorist symbols
-endorsing a severe crime (after Oct 7, which wasn’t the case for the first decision, see the explanation for this one: Link)
-‘public incitement to hate’
the core of the issue is the (assumed or proven) intent of the perpetrators, and the issue that many of the relevant laws have extensive past rulings for right wing extremism, but fewer or none for cases like this. FortunateSons (talk) 13:52, 7 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Let's not wikilawyer the other opinion in the source out of existence. If one source is being used, it is irrelevant that we need independent sources to confirm what the defence is reported as claiming.Nishidani (talk) 12:58, 7 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Regarding the first ruling, that’s what the title (“verhängt erstes Strafurteil”) implied for me, and I’m not familiar with any other, though it is quite possible that I either missed or a criminal ruling, so far, I’m only aware of affirmative administrative rulings, which have a different (read: lower) standard. FortunateSons (talk) 13:25, 7 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
A slogan as a 'terrorist symbol/cymbal'? Since when have terrorists an exclusive patent on popular sayings within any language? I remember singing as a child of six in our backgarden ladybird, ladybird fly away to my 4 yr old sister to soothe her fright when a ladybird beetle settled on her arm. That began as a chant used by Protestants as an augury that their Catholic neighbours might disappear or die out. As Catholics we used to hear several such rhymes against us, Micks or Irish apes, as we went to school. I suppose some politically correct dickhead will come out and press for a law forbidden these songs, rhymes and slogans as well. Bejayzus. We just shrugged them off. No one thought of legislating the prejudice out of all visibility.Nishidani (talk) 14:33, 7 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I’m just the messenger. But just for the uninvolved readers: this is standard in Germany, banned symbols (link is correlated, but not always analogous) are common FortunateSons (talk) 14:57, 7 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
This article just tells me the lower German courts are just making it up as they go along. "A Bavarian court ruled in June that the phrase expected to be used in an upcoming demonstration in Munich did not constitute a crime and could not be banned outright, finding that the “benefit of the doubt” around the slogan must prevail." Selfstudier (talk) 14:12, 7 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Two German courts say pro-Palestinian slogans 'legal', after solidarity group wins case Idem, that was last year, Munster and Cologne, best write an article about the vagaries of the German court system instead. Selfstudier (talk) 14:16, 7 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Hesse in March. Yawn. Selfstudier (talk) 14:20, 7 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
No comment on the German lower courts. However, as we don’t really do case law, it is in fact highly dependent on context. FortunateSons (talk) 14:58, 7 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I suspect it is highly dependent on the judges as well. Like I said, they are just making it up. Hesse is a HAC. Selfstudier (talk) 15:01, 7 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Making it up or interpreting and applying law? FortunateSons (talk) 15:04, 7 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Just making it up. Judicial activism, maybe. Selfstudier (talk) 15:08, 7 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I have met enough German judges (only half a dozen ones that primarily or exclusively do crim law though) to consider this exceedingly unlikely, for both those in favour and against punishing such conduct. FortunateSons (talk) 15:18, 7 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Well, it's all irrelevant why they make contradictory judgements, just that if you include the one, I will include the others, even though I don't think any of them are worthy of inclusion. Selfstudier (talk) 15:42, 7 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
You should include the other criminal one as well, sure! As long as we’re clear on the described factors (time, action, relevant laws) and the distinction between the criminal and administrative, including both judgements (and any future judgements that provide significant changes) is reasonable. FortunateSons (talk) 15:49, 7 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yes! Let's make a whole, completely irrelevant section about German court cases and another one for the countries that don't have such cases (all of them). Selfstudier (talk) 15:52, 7 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Considering how limited the legal status section is, a few more details (or a separate article, if there are enough people who know and care) sounds reasonable. If you can be prosecuted for a phrase, that’s probably significant FortunateSons (talk) 16:07, 7 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Well add more to it. Here's the Dutch update, after having found no case to answer in 2023. Selfstudier (talk) 16:14, 7 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
A majority of the Dutch parliament declared the phrase to be a call for violence. The judiciary, however, ruled in August 2023 that the phrase was protected on free speech grounds, being "subject to various interpretations", including those that "relate to the state of Israel and possibly to people with Israeli citizenship, but do not relate to Jews because of their race or religion". The decision was later upheld by the Dutch Supreme Court.
In May of 2024, a parliamentary motion calling for the criminalization of the slogan passed with a single-vote majority. As a result, prosecutions for inciting violence and hate speech when using the slogan are theoretically possible; however, prosecutions remain difficult in practice. (Why?)
Thoughts? FortunateSons (talk) 19:49, 7 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Why does it matter? Just add it to the article, it's what you wanted to do, add stuff, right? Selfstudier (talk) 20:05, 7 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I was going for something specific, but sure; it’s added FortunateSons (talk) 20:09, 7 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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