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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was archived by Ian Rose via FACBot (talk) 12:24, 5 June 2016 [1].

Catherine Zeta-Jones

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Nominator(s): Krimuk|90 (talk) 02:14, 15 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]

A lovely lady, Catherine Zeta-Jones is the perfect combination of beauty and brains. I first expanded the article during the Wales-related contest held by Dr. Blofeld. It has since received a thorough peer review from SchroCat. Zeta-Jones' roles and awards page has recently been promoted to featured status as well. Happy reading! Krimuk|90 (talk) 02:14, 15 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Dr. Blofeld

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Thank you so much, Blofeld. :) --Krimuk|90 (talk) 13:35, 15 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Checkingfax

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  • Comment by Checkingfax – I will be sure to !vote on this article's promotion when it is further along in the review process. Ping me back. I performed two series of edits, here, and here, to bring it a few steps closer to being Featured Article worthy. Good luck. Cheers! {{u|Checkingfax}} {Talk} 08:38, 16 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for the edits, Checkingfax. I've adjusted the size of some of the images in the article to space them out a bit. Cheers! --Krimuk|90 (talk) 08:40, 16 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Hi, Krimuk90. You are welcome. May I ask why you are downsizing select images to 80 percent? Cheers! {{u|Checkingfax}} {Talk} 08:49, 16 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Because if the images are too large, they either crowd together or bleed into subsequent sections. I believe keeping them at 80% allows more space. Krimuk|90 (talk) 08:52, 16 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Hi, Krimuk90. On my 14" low-res laptop screen they do not bleed at all at the default size. Do you have the size jacked up in your preferences? Cheers! {{u|Checkingfax}} {Talk} 11:36, 16 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think so. I guess it's just a personal preference to arrange the pictures a little apart from each other. :) Krimuk|90 (talk) 01:43, 17 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Hi, Krimuk90. Per the intent of MOS:IMAGES downsizing images is to be used only for last resort. The guidelines encourage us to leave images at their default resolution. This is very important for readers with vision impairments. I would encourage you to leave the images at their default resolution and to arrange them differently on the page so they do not bleed in ways you do not want them to. Check your preferences to see if you have images set to the default size. Otherwise, you can adjust your personal preferences to show them smaller, while allowing the default size, or their custom resizing to prevail for all other readers. Cheers! {{u|Checkingfax}} {Talk} 17:37, 18 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Oh, come on! You can't oppose an entire nomination for a personal preference. Krimuk|90 (talk) 03:47, 18 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
While I agree that this oppose is unfair, having Welsh in the first sentence and Wales in the second is redundant/repetitive.—indopug (talk) 08:04, 18 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Removed. Thanks for pointing that out, Indopug. Krimuk|90 (talk) 08:15, 18 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
It's not personal. Wales isn't independent, but is rather a part of the United Kingdom. GoodDay (talk) 17:33, 18 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Cassianto

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Reading now, comments to come... CassiantoTalk 19:40, 16 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]

  • My first observation would be the infobox, which is currently a WP:DISINFOBOX. It tells us nothing that the lead doesn't. It is filled with irrelevant information and bloat such as the following:
    • Name and date of birth. Both of these are not hard to find as they are the first few words on the very first line of the lede. Also, the name is used no less than 4 occasions which is far too repetitive; not only is her name the name of the article, it is mentioned on the first line of the lede; above her image, below her image, and below in the box. Too much repetition here.
    • "Actress". We know, and the first line of the lede tells us this.
    • As a reader why would I care where she resides? What makes this relevent and worthy of being in such a prime position such as this?
    • "Children". Again, why do we need to be told this? They're not even named; it's just "2". Pointless.

Obviously omitting the box altogether will not stop this article from gaining FA, or indeed influence an oppose vote from me. But just so you are aware, lots of articles pass FAC without an infobox; all of my FA biographies are without an infobox, for instance. These can be found on my user page should you wish to look. In infobox disputes the main reason cited by the "for" camp are "because we would struggle to find information quickly, blah, blah, blah..." Not so here; everything in the current box can be found in the lede. But I appreciate this is a stylistic choice so this is very much up to you. Review to follow... CassiantoTalk 19:54, 16 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I had removed the infobox, but an editor considered it an unilateral removal. Krimuk|90 (talk) 01:36, 17 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
It can be removed with a reference made in your edit summary to the fact that there was no consensus for it in the first place. You are then operating under WP:BRD and the person protesting it's removal will have to then discuss why they want it. It works both ways; all articles start without an infobox. Therefore any addition of an infobox should be discussed first. Leave this to me. CassiantoTalk 05:24, 17 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Cool, thanks! :) Krimuk|90 (talk) 05:31, 17 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • "She has two brothers, David, who worked as an electrician and Lyndon, who worked as a sales representative before venturing into film production." -- Relevance? Why are her brothers' careers relevent to her? I can see why Lyndon's is, kind of, but certainly not David. I would say: "She has two brothers, David, and Lyndon, who worked as a sales representative before venturing into film production." Also, are they older or younger?
Tweaked.
  • "The family came from a modest financial background, but their fortunes improved when they won £50,000 in a local bingo competition." -- I don't like this line. If their financial background was modest, it's a bit stretched by saying "their fortunes inproved". I can see this if they were flat broke, but not modest. Also, in what way did their life improve?
Well, after winning the money they could afford to send her to a good dance school and a decent private school. Krimuk|90 (talk) 01:36, 17 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I think it would be good to mention this here, but don't go into too much detail. Certainly mention the dance school and how the money helped with the fees. CassiantoTalk 13:39, 17 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Done. Changed the amount as well, as The Independent seems to be a more reliable source than the Daily Mirror. Krimuk|90 (talk) 14:38, 17 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Because she was a hyperactive child, Zeta-Jones' mother sent her to the Hazel Johnson School of Dance when she was four years old to better channel her energy." -- I don't like the "better channel her energy". Who was the dance instructor, Derek Acorah?
Haha, I've removed that bit. Krimuk|90 (talk) 01:36, 17 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Cassianto: I look forward to the rest of your comments. :) Krimuk|90 (talk) 02:22, 22 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support -- I've re-read the article and I've noticed a huge improvement since I last read it a week ago. I think the infobox removal has also helped it to become a stand-out article compared to most other biographies. I believe this now meets the criteria. CassiantoTalk 21:48, 23 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you very much, Cassianto. :) Krimuk|90 (talk) 01:27, 24 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Sarastro

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Leaning Oppose: I'm not too thrilled with the prose at the moment, just from a skim of the lead and first section. There is nothing major, just a few little fiddly things. I'm leaning oppose, but I don't expect that to stand for long, just a bit of a polish needed. Sarastro1 (talk) 22:15, 17 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]

  • The first paragraph of the lead tells us barely anything about her other than she won some awards. For me, this should go at the end of the lead, but whatever your preference it seems strange that the only information is that she is an actress and she won some stuff. Surely we need her place of birth at least! I would reorganise this somewhat.
  • "and had her stage breakthrough with a leading role in a 1987 production of 42nd Street.": I don't like "had" here, and would prefer "made" but we have that in the next sentence. I would be inclined to reword this as "and made her stage breakthrough with a leading role..." and reword the next sentence.
  • "She went on to make her screen debut with the unremarkable French-Italian film 1001 Nights": That's a bit harsh! I don't really think we can pass judgement on that poor film. We could reword this to "Her screen debut came in the French-Italian film..." which is a bit less wordy and allows us to use "made " in the previous sentence.
I think the "unremarkable" bit helps explain the fact her film debut was not a success, and she went on to find success later in television. Although I've tweaked the sentence per your suggestion. --Krimuk|90 (talk) 03:45, 18 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I'd prefer something more factual, such as "unsuccessful" or "low-budget". "Unremarkable" is too much like editorial voice. Sarastro1 (talk) 21:53, 19 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Changed. Krimuk|90 (talk) 01:45, 20 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • "a regular on the British television series": Would it not be a regular in?
  • "Zeta-Jones relocated to Los Angeles, and was cast in the superhero film The Phantom (1996)": Do we need to specify this film? The point is her relocation, and we talk about her films in the next paragraph.
  • "with roles that highlighted her sex appeal in the action film The Mask of Zorro (1998) and the caper thriller Entrapment (1999).": There's nothing actually wrong here, but would it be better to insert "such as" after "sex appeal"? (And what is a "caper thriller"? I'd be happier with just thriller, but maybe an entire genre has passed me by.)
Changed to heist film. Krimuk|90 (talk) 03:45, 18 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • "In addition to acting in films": As we have just said that she won a stage award, I think "in films" is inaccurate. In fact, we could remove this entire phrase with no great loss.
  • "Her parents are of Welsh origin, and she also has Irish ancestry on her mother's side.": Can we not just say her parents are Welsh? And maybe rephrase the latter part to "although her mother has Irish ancestry"
  • "Because she was a hyperactive child, Zeta-Jones' mother sent her to the Hazel Johnson School of Dance when she was four years old": I think we have a dangling participle here; as written, Zeta-Jones' mother is the one who was a hyperactive child.
  • "The family came from a modest financial background": Something a bit off here. Can you have a modest financial background? I've heard of a modest background and modest finances, but never both together.
  • "Zeta-Jones participated in stage shows at her school from a young age, and gained local attention when she was featured in a newspaper for winning a Junior Star Trail talent competition, where she sang a Shirley Bassey song": Wordy, and I'm not sure we can say "where" for a competition. Maybe "Zeta-Jones participated in school stage shows from a young age and gained local media attention when her rendition of a Shirley Bassey song won a Junior Star Trail talent competition."
  • "where she would audition for roles in the theatre": Why not "where she auditioned"?
  • Do we need to know that she was a tap-dancing champion? At least we need to say what the competition was to give an idea of the scale: local, national or international??
I've mentioned that she became a national level champion.
  • Also, if we cut this, I'd be inclined to merge the two mentions of Annie. Instead of the rather wordy : "At the age of nine, she was selected to play one of the orphan girls in a West End production of the musical Annie, and in her early teens, she became a tap-dancing champion.[10][13] In 1981 she played the lead role of Annie in a Swansea production of the musical, which was staged at the Swansea Grand Theatre." we could have "At the age of nine, she was selected to play one of the orphan girls in a West End production of the musical Annie; in 1981, she played the lead in a Swansea Grand Theatre production of the same show."
  • "Two years later, she played the lead role of Tullulah in a West End production of Bugsy Malone.": It pains me greatly to admit that I know that this should be Tallulah. And I really, really hate that show... Sarastro1 (talk) 22:15, 17 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Sarastro1 All done. I hope the article looks better now. Cheers! Krimuk|90 (talk) 03:45, 18 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]

More comments: I've read to the end of the 1998-2000 section, and there are just a few little problems. Nothing major, but just enough to make me think we still need a bit of work. The prose is fine, but I have a few worries about sourcing. I hope we can sort this a bit, for this has the potential to be really, really good. Sarastro1 (talk) 21:53, 19 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]

  • "The film was not well received at the box office but attracted attention for featuring Zeta-Jones in the nude": Not too sure about this, and not sure it reflects the source. This rung a bell, and I checked the link which states "but the film received little acclaim and is best remembered for its enjoyable nude scenes". It does not say that it attracted attention at the time for the nude scenes, but is remembered, a crucial difference. I think it was more like one of the "before they were famous" things. Crucially, this reference does not support that the nude scenes were Zeta Jones. I don't doubt that they were, but I think we need a clearer source.
Coudln't find any other reliable source on the topic, so I've tweaked the existing text. Krimuk|90 (talk) 01:45, 20 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • "played the role of the eldest, voluptuous daughter of a family living in the countryside in 1950s Britain": I also question the choice of "voluptuous" here. Why we have chosen this word to describe the character, I am not sure. It is in the source, but is not a big deal. Is this really what we want to focus on here?
I was worried that this would come across as a bit too crude, but there were a lot of sources that spoke about her being a "big-breasted beauty" in it. Anyway, I've removed the word for now. Krimuk|90 (talk) 01:45, 20 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • I also wonder do we say enough about Darling Buds? I was never a fan, but it was a huge success, and she was a huge star in the UK at this time. Does this fully come across? I'm not sure.
I think this sentence covers that well: The series was the highest-rated television show in the country at the time, and Zeta-Jones gained wide public recognition for it; she said, "Literally, with one hour of television my life completely changed. I couldn't go anywhere". Krimuk|90 (talk) 01:45, 20 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • "in the unremarkable adventure film Christopher Columbus: The Discovery (1992)": Again, unremarkable
Changed.
  • "though the critic Vincent Canby of The New York Times was appreciative of her comic timing": Not sure about this either. The source says "Very funny, too, is Catherine Zeta Jones, a new, sultrily beautiful young Welsh actress, who appears as a woman willing do anything to become a duchess"; this is not quite the same thing as comic timing.
Tweaked.
  • My other mild concern about this section is that it is cobbled together from film reviews and we say more about the films than her. That may be unavoidable without a full-length biography (I notice one exists from 2003. Has it been consulted?) but the danger is that we get an uneven account. There is no over-arching commentary about her life at this time, and I think we really need some to pull together a fairly ragtag list of film appearances.
  • "Dismayed at being typecast as the romantic interest in British films": This doesn't really come across, nor her comments ("I was a pretty face and a big bust and nothing else") on the subject. The list of film appearances does not give this impression. Either she is exaggerating or we are not quite striking the right balance when mentioning her films (see above!).
Tweaked.
  • She also said "There was all this fuss about who I was and wasn't dating... People in the business believed what they read about me". Other than her comments here, there is nothing about this either. We do not get the impression, as I mention above, that she was a big, big star.
  • I think the 1998-2000 section has similar problems. No over-arching commentary, just a list of films with facts cobbled together from promotional material and a few reviews. While it is undoubtedly well-written, I don't think it is telling us anything really important about Zeta-Jones. I appreciate this is an occupational hazard when writing actor biographies, but this just feels a little lightweight. We really need more "overview" sources. For example there is this on the BBC, or this from the Daily Telegraph. Sarastro1 (talk) 21:53, 19 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I understand your concerns about there not being a general overview/commentary on her career/personality in this section, but fret not, I've got that covered in the "media" section at the end of the article. I'm sure you'll see when you get to that section. :) Krimuk|90 (talk) 01:45, 20 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Next batch: Down to the end of the Career section.

  • "that takes your mind off her not – always – fluid dancing": We have used dashes here, but it should be hyphens for "not-always-fluid", as given in the original quote.
  • We have "box office bomb" and "box office success" in close proximity; I'd prefer one less "box office"
  • "A biopic of Harry Houdini, entitled Death Defying Acts (2007), starring Guy Pearce as the eponymous escapologist": We can't really use eponymous here unless the film was called Houdini.
  • "Following No Reservations, Zeta-Jones' career trajectory became less noteworthy": A few problems here. How can a trajectory be noteworthy? And noteworthy is editorial voice as it is a value judgement.
  • "She instead chose to focus on her family and health": Health is a strange thing to focus on unless she was ill, and this is the first mention of anything in this regard.
The thing is she did become ill, suffering from bipolar disorder, which I've covered in the personal life section. That was a major reason why she took on less work during this period. Krimuk|90 (talk) 02:22, 22 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
In that case, perhaps a sentence to state this, just so the reader can make sense of this part of the career section; maybe simply "having been diagnosed with bipolar disorder"? Sarastro1 (talk) 21:23, 22 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Done. Krimuk|90 (talk) 03:33, 25 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • "which proved to be her third unremarkable production of the year": Another "unremarkable".
  • Having completed the career section, I remain a little underwhelmed by the use of promotional material. It becomes a little tiresome to read a succession of "She starred in XXX, she thought XXX about it, she said XXX, and the critics thought XXX," no matter how admittedly well-written the sections are. This is not enough to make me oppose, far from it, but I wonder if it could be better. Maybe it's just me. Sarastro1 (talk) 19:21, 21 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
All done. I know that in the biography of contemporary actors, the career section can get a bit repetitive, but I really have tried hard to make it less monotonous. Looking forward to your comments on the last few sections. :) Krimuk|90 (talk) 02:22, 22 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Last batch: Nothing major here. Sarastro1 (talk) 21:23, 22 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]

  • Be careful in the "Other work" section. We have two "In additions" in close proximity. We also have a lot of sentences beginning "Zeta-Jones" or "She", which is best avoided.
  • Giving the 1960 date for Spartacus is a little confusing, as I first read it as she voiced it in 1960. I don't think we need that date at all.
  • "Also that year, she was signed on by the phone company T-Mobile for an estimated US$10 million per year": Do we know what she did?
Well, she is their celebrity endorser, which I've mentioned in the later part of the sentence. Krimuk|90 (talk) 01:43, 23 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • "the rest of the press was not permitted to enter": Is the press singular or plural? I'd be inclined to say "the press were", but I know views differ.
  • "Due to the stress from both their illnesses": I always prefer "Owing to" as I'm slightly pedantic, but I'm not going to insist on it and I know many people disagree with me on that one!
  • "Zeta-Jones' beauty and sex appeal has been picked up by several sources": This seems a little clumsy.
Any suggestions on how else to mention this? Krimuk|90 (talk) 01:43, 23 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • My personal preference would have been to integrate the Personal life/media sections into the career, hence my comments above, but I appreciate that this is a perfectly acceptable way to do it.

That's it from me, and I'll be happy to support once these last nit-picks have been addressed, or replied to, or I have been politely told that I'm talking rubbish! Sarastro1 (talk) 21:23, 22 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Sarastro1: all done. Thank you so much for such a thorough review. The article is much stronger now. Krimuk|90 (talk) 01:43, 23 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Support: There is one unaddressed point in my reply on family and health. But that doesn't affect my support, and this is a very good piece of work. Well done. Sarastro1 (talk) 16:22, 24 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you very much, Sarastro. And the one remaining point has now been addressed as well. :) Krimuk|90 (talk) 03:33, 25 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Image review

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Hey Nikkimaria, none of the images end in periods. Am I missing something? Krimuk|90 (talk) 05:08, 21 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Looks like a revert took care of the issue already. Nikkimaria (talk) 12:26, 21 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Z105space

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  • Support I am no expert on this actress but the articles looks to meet the FA criteria. It looks to be balanced, neutral, and comprehensive. No dead links were found when going through the references. Good work! Z105space (talk) 20:29, 22 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you very much. :) Krimuk|90 (talk) 01:43, 23 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from SchroCat

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Thank you so much, SchroCat. :) Krimuk|90 (talk) 01:43, 23 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from TonyTheTiger

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See the talk page discussion. Krimuk|90 (talk) 03:21, 27 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
No reliable commentary on her performance available. Krimuk|90 (talk) 03:21, 27 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, she is, though the source doesn't explicitly state that. Krimuk|90 (talk) 03:21, 27 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Does any source clarify this?--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 03:53, 1 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
"Public recognition" does not talk about critical commentary at all. It means she became well known with the public. Krimuk|90 (talk) 03:21, 27 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Most reviewers didn't speak of her performance. Krimuk|90 (talk) 03:22, 27 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Show wasn't that well received, but her performance was. Krimuk|90 (talk) 03:21, 27 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Was she reviewed in Blue Juice, The Phantom or Titanic?--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 04:55, 25 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    • Blue Juice, in no way, ranks as an important film in her career. The review cited in the article calls it ""superficial and predictable; of note only for the early-career presence of Zeta-Jones and McGregor". Now, if and when there is a critical analysis that adds something pertinent to her biography, either positive or negative, I have added it. And that makes the article adequately comprehensive. The few roles for which I haven't provided a review for her performance adds nothing of importance, whether positive or negative, to this article. Krimuk|90 (talk) 01:43, 27 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
      • I am well aware of the obvious that Blue Juice, which is in the section before the one titled "Hollywood breakthrough and success", is a relatively unimportant performance for Z-J. She is an award winning actress who has appeared in many acclaimed films. I am just asking questions. 4 out of 5 Metacritic reviews are far more positive than the one you quote. Also, you seem to be mischaracterizing the film to the reader. Do you have a source for the "Stoner comedy"? It seems to be more of a surf film (seemingly the the first British one) according to various sources such as this and this. I'd consider saying something like the film offers an intriguing pre-star glimpse of Z-J according to TV Guide.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 03:07, 27 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
      • Really nothing for The Phantom in dozens of reviews. For Emily Ratajkowski, I had to work hard to find anything for some roles, but there were a few crumbs.(Gone Girl and Spoils).--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 04:04, 27 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I have changed the film's genre, though I believe none of the quoted sources talk about her performance at all. Krimuk|90 (talk) 03:21, 27 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
You have yet to select a source for the new genre in the article.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 03:48, 30 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Added a source for "surf film". Krimuk|90 (talk) 04:36, 30 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
The Variety review has been summarised for The Phantom, which is the majority opinion as well. What else do you want? Krimuk|90 (talk) 06:10, 27 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
As for Phantom and Titanic, nothing substantial in the way her performance was reviewed for them that's worth quoting. Most reviewers talk about how much of a stunning beauty she is. We aren't missing out on anything pertinent by not quoting reviews for these two performances. I have, nonetheless, taken note of what a Variety reviewer considered of her part. Krimuk|90 (talk) 03:21, 27 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
More comments coming.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 04:55, 25 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Note: I request the FAC co-coordinators Ian Rose and Laser brain to please take not that this oppose is not based on any exisiting criteria, but on a very personal opinion of the reviewer. This article is a biography of an actress, and in no way should it be a detailed commentary on critical reviews of the films she has starred in. As you can see from the previous supports by more experienced editors, who have authored biographies of film actors and actresses, the article does indeed meet the FA-criteria. Krimuk|90 (talk) 05:03, 25 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I am not requesting reviews of the films, but reviews of Z-J. Like I said look at all the other FAC actresses. You can tell how they reviewed in almost every role. This article is deficient.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 05:26, 25 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
So you're telling me that editors such as Dr. Blofeld and SchroCat who have authored several FA-class biographies of actors and actresses, and have supported this nomination, are unaware of this point you raise? Please show me a policy that states that how an actress is reviewed in each of her films needs to mentioned in her biography. You feeling that the article is deficient based on your personal preference is not a valid reason for an oppose. Krimuk|90 (talk) 05:29, 25 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
You are being a bit combative. This article is suppose to summarize secondary sources on the subject. Critical commentary on her performances is among the most important components of this subject. Dr. Blofeld and SchroCat can say what they want, but if she was reviewed in Blue Juice, The Phantom or Titanic, I should expect you to summarize that content, as should they.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 05:46, 25 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
And AGAIN, I ask you. Show me the policy that says that a review for every performance of an actor/actress needs to be mentioned. "I believe", "I think", "I want" are not valid reasons for an oppose. Krimuk|90 (talk) 05:59, 25 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Every film and every review ever written for an actress doesn't need to be mentioned, in fact the article would soon likely demote to a plodding one which is monotonous to read if you did that. The balance is fine here, I see nothing of major importance missing. So if you're opposing on comprehension grounds I'm sure the delegates will see this and not place too much weight on it. It is comprehensive, but anybody who has written an actor FA will tell you that you don't need to do that for every film.♦ Dr. Blofeld 09:19, 25 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Are you serious? Your argument that you don't want to expand an article is that it might become monotonous to include more details? The two FAs closest to Z-J in terms of stage of life and accomplishment (upon quick review) are Philip Seymour Hoffman (aged 46) and Judy Garland (aged 47). Those are 40198 and 37102 characters of readable prose and not monotonous. Z-J (age 46) at 29034 characters could be expanded by 25% and be short of both of those numbers. If you look at her article and the comments above, you will note that I am not requesting each and every role be expanded. She has content related to many works that do not even have articles on WP. It would be ridiculous for me to ask for a summary of encyclopedic content on her performance when the entire work is not a notable subject. However, the article as it reads to me includes many notable works that involved Z-J for which I am unable to assess her performance. Is there a reason why a performance that was likely reviewed was not included. Is there something to hide about these performances such as Blue Juice, The Phantom or Titanic. Are you as an editor cherrypicking reviews and works to highlight? If you have a good reason to hide her reviews let me know.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 23:54, 25 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
@TonyTheTiger: I wrote the Philip Seymour Hoffman article myself with Loeba and I would never expect Zeta Jones to have the same level of prose count as Hoffman who had a lot more roles and more roles of greater substance.♦ Dr. Blofeld 10:28, 26 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
That's an extremely misguided comparison. Hoffman has done 25% more films than Zeta-Jones has, so obviously the character count is much more for his article. Having said that, if you actually did take the time out to read that article, you'll see that critical reviews for several of his performances have not been included. If you want to compare, atleast read the article before you do so. And FYI, you still haven't shown me a policy that aligns with your demands, and yet you are vehemently contradicting two editors who have actually written FA-class biographies. Krimuk|90 (talk) 01:39, 26 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
What is misguided is to say that discussant X can not oppose because discussants Y and Z have supported, which is your argument. I believe that elements of Z-J's biography that I have read so far are omitted for no reason, thus violating comprehensiveness, which is part of the main relevant policy (WP:WIAFA). I have never encountered such arrogance as Dr. Blofeld has expressed that because he is satisfied, my queries should be ignored. I have written a few dozen FAs in my WP career (and more than either Dr. Blofeld or SchroCat according to WP:WBFAN). There are some bios included in that group.--03:34, 26 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I am not going to respond further until the coordinators clear this up. If they feel that your oppose is justified then I'll do as advised. Krimuk|90 (talk) 05:29, 26 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I'm really not sure why you needed to and count FAC-size Tony (especially as we currently hold the same number of FAs)! I know that for the several bios I have done, I did not include all mentions in reviews (hell, for most of mine I didn't even list all their performances, film, TV or stage). I tried where possible to select reviews on the basis that they provided understanding on the individual and their work. As a summary article (as opposed to a full biography) we can only give highlights or examples of an individual: so long as we are balanced in the selection of those reviews then we are doing our job. - SchroCat (talk) 07:27, 26 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
In regard to counting FA size, the nominator has attempted to dismiss my commentary as if I am an unqualified reviewer. BTW, congratulations on your recent FA promotion if we now hold the same number of FAs. I am asking about certain roles and asking why no reviews are included in the article. It is the responsibility of the nominator to convince me that he has examined the reviews and found them all to be trivial to her biographical sketch. I think you should proceed as if I am a good faith reviewer asking questions about possible omissions rather than someone demanding trivial detail. You may or may not be aware that I have currently nominated Emily Ratajkowski. Because she is at a stage of her career where she is trying to get traction as an actress, I am curious about early stages of the career of a successful actress and wondering if there might be more that I might learn about how Z-J rose to fame. Look at the article for Blue Juice. Based solely on a glance at its promotional art work, it seems to me that Z-J must have been the subject of some non-trivial commentary for the role. I am not asking you for explanation regarding The Return of the Native or The Cinder Path. It is perfectly fine to reply that no worthwhile content exists regarding a specific subject. E.g. at Wikipedia:Featured_article_candidates/Emma_Stone/archive1, I was satisfied with responses such as "This was an easily dismissed role, and there was no mention of her in other sources." and "Certain sources do mention it as a memorable role of hers, but there is no critical commentary on her performance that is mentionable or quotable." The fact that I asked for clarification regarding lack of content on certain roles is not bad faith on my part. It is the responsibility of the nominator to address my concerns assuming each concern is a good faith query. The nominator here is suppose to assume that my expectations will be reasonable as others have in recent discussions at FAC (I have been involved in the following active FACs Kalki Koechlin, Emma Stone, Freida Pinto and Courtney Love). There has been no claim by other reviewers that I was a bad faith reviewer. Yes my interest in lesser roles may be a bit higher than the average reviewer. However, look around. My expectations have been reasonable and I think I have helped improve the other articles by my FAC involvement.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 11:47, 26 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Oh, come on. You did not just "ask for clarification regarding lack of content on certain roles". You outright opposed an entire nomination. Now, that to me is bad-faith. Only because some other nominators did as you asked them to, doesn't mean I'll do the same. I'm not cattle. If I think something's unfair, I will speak out against it. Krimuk|90 (talk) 14:26, 26 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I have opposed for stated comprehensiveness reasons. It is not bad faith to oppose a nomination unless there is no cause. I am giving you a fair chance to respond to my list of concerns. I have stated reasonable issues for you to respond to. First and foremost is why a performance with Z-J promoted as prominently as Blue Juice and with a major co-star like Ewan McGregor is not being explained in the text. Is it unfair for me to ask you to respond to concerns such as this? I don't see why not. It is not a matter of you being cattle. It is quite fair for me to ask you to explain why such an omission of content is trivial or to correct an oversight. I have been fair with all other nominees at FAC and will be fair with you. However, at the moment, I would oppose promotion to featured.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 17:59, 26 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Blue Juice, in no way, ranks as an important film in her career. The review cited in the article calls it ""superficial and predictable; of note only for the early-career presence of Zeta-Jones and McGregor". Now, if and when there is a critical analysis that adds something pertinent to her biography, either positive or negative, I have added it. And that makes the article adequately comprehensive. The few roles for which I haven't provided a review for her performance adds nothing of importance, whether positive or negative, to this article. Krimuk|90 (talk) 01:43, 27 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
If you are going to be responding to my concerns, it will be helpful if you could do so inline. I.e., respond to each concern above by inserting a response to the lines in between. I will copy your Blue Juice response to show you what I mean.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 03:07, 27 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Between FAC, PR and GAs, I have reviewed hundreds of articles for WP. Surely at least 500. You are the first person to claim to have considered each of my concerns and dismissed all of them. When I checked in on the Blue Juice one, I find that the selected review differs from the majority of available reviews, but that there was no really important criticism of Z-J. I remains suspicious of being dismissed on all of my concerns. Admittedly, upon closer inspection you did make some changes to the BJ article. I am just finding it hard to believe that none of the dozens of Phantom reviews discussed Z-J.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 03:51, 27 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Come on, I didn't dimiss you at all. I raised a valid concern to your oppose, and was backed up by two other editors as well. I still stand by the fact we do not need to provide reviews for each and every performance of her. I hope you understand that now. As for The Phantom, the Variety comment on her performance has been summarised, which is the majority view-point as well. Krimuk|90 (talk) 06:10, 27 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I don't have much time to edit Friday-Monday. I'll get back to you when I can.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 12:37, 28 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I had considered this a dismissal of my concerns.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 03:42, 30 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Not at all. I simply disagreed with some of the concerns you raised. Krimuk|90 (talk) 04:37, 30 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Added a review for her performance in The Haunting. Her role in High Fidelity was a minuscule one, and not much is worth quoting here. Krimuk|90 (talk) 04:36, 30 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • I am going to finish reviewing this in the next 72 hours. However, you can easily anticipate many of my concerns. I have not looked past where I am in the article. However, for each role that you summarize the movie review and/or her role and do not summarize the review of her performance, I am going to point it out. You can just go through the rest of the article and start filling any such issues in with commentary on her performance, if available. You may want to trim back on commentary about the movie and substitute commentary about her performance or supplement the commentary. Your choice.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 05:36, 31 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry, but I won't be adding any other critical reviews for her performances. The balance is just fine at the moment, and I am not willing to bloat it up. Having said that, I'll definitely be willing to address any other concerns that you might raise. Cheers! Krimuk|90 (talk) 05:48, 31 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I think you are misinterpretting balance and bloat. The bloat in the article is from you using the article as a platform to post reviews of ZJ's movies, which is inappropriate. A FA-level biography is suppose to explain her performances and not the reviews of the movies that she has been in.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 18:16, 31 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Firstly, I won't be intimidated by your threatening edit-summary. Secondly, your demands have been contradicted by no less than four editors in this review itself. And yet, you go on. I am done responding to you, Tony. Thank you for taking your time out for commenting here, but if you refuse to look beyond your point-of-view I can't go on like a broken record. --Krimuk|90 (talk) 02:11, 1 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I am not attempting to intimidate you. I am stating the obvious. In terms of an actress bio, film profitability it sort of fluff and performance reviews are sort of core material. This article attempts to summarize the profitability and movie reviews of almost every film she has been in instead of attempting to summarize her performances. That is not an FA-class article to me. If the article would be bloated by including the proper subject matter, then eliminate that which is less important. In an actress bio, it is not as important to state whether a film made money as it is to state what the actresses performance reviews were. There is nothing that I am asking you for that is not more important to the subject at hand than the fluff you have included.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 03:52, 1 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
A balance of the both is intended. Not one in favour of the other. Krimuk|90 (talk) 05:08, 1 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
A balance of fluff and core material? My oppose will stand. Note the people all agreed with you before I enumerated my objections. If they would prefer to see box office results to performance reviews they can stand by you.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 22:18, 1 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Box office performance of a film is not fluff. Also, all four editors disagreed with you much after you opposed the nomination. So that's that. Krimuk|90 (talk) 01:36, 2 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Comment This comment criticizing the sourcing in the Zeta-Jones was left in the FAC for Hawaii Sesquicentennial half dollar. Just passing it on. That's the limit of what I'm doing here (exits stage right)--Wehwalt (talk) 00:04, 27 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Singora has a vendetta against against a lot of us, ranting on about us on wikiocracy, so I wouldn't place much emphasis on anything he's said. He's been critical of Brian Boulton's work too, that says it all..♦ Dr. Blofeld 11:14, 27 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Coordinator note - Since Krimuk90 above asked for input from a coordinator, I'll weigh in and say that I'd like to encourage everyone to cool it down a bit and maintain focus on WP:WIAFA. Any commentary that dials back to WIAFA is valid, whether or not reviewers and nominators agree on it. Editors disagree on issues such as prose quality and comprehensiveness all the time. Just because a comment is valid doesn't mean nominators are forced to action it, especially if it's subjective. If reviewers leave comments that nominators disagree with or decide not to action, coordinators determine how much weight the outstanding opposition should carry. Obviously being put in a position to potentially promote an article over someone's opposition is not ideal, but it happens. We consider the strength of the argument and the degree to which other reviews mention it, among other things. Hopefully this helps. --Laser brain (talk) 11:56, 27 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Sources

[edit]

Comment on sourcing: A couple of points further to my review. First, I don't agree with TonyTheTiger above. I think we cover reviews of her career more than adequately. Additionally, Tony favours a style which leads to articles which are generally longer than most, and likes to include every details available. I prefer a more concise approach. However, Singora raises a valid point which is worth addressing. To quote from what was said on Wehwalt's page: "I glanced at it and noticed that sources include the UK's Sun (1 instance), Daily Mirror (4 instances) and Daily Express (3 instances), Australia's Herald Sun (1 instance), Fox News and People Magazine (7 instances). The article is an obvious oppose (you can't possibly use those sources), yet no one has picked up on this." WP:PUS says that these tabloid sources should "in general" not be used" and I think this is usually correct. Some of them need to go. With this in mind, I am striking my support for the moment. Sarastro1 (talk) 19:35, 29 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]

  • The Sun reference (currently ref 9) is to an interview which with ZJ which supports most of the text. BUT it does not support that her mum sent her to "the Hazel Johnson School of Dance"
Added the nytimes interview source inline that supports the dance school claim. Krimuk|90 (talk) 02:22, 30 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • The first Mirror reference (ref 8) is to an interview.
Replaced this anyway.
  • The second (ref 32) appears to be an interview, but I can't access it to verify the three times it is used.
This one is an actual interview, and I'm using direct quotations made by her. So I believe this can be used. Krimuk|90 (talk) 07:28, 1 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • The third (ref 126) is more problematic. It is from the "3am girls" celebrity section and is not an original interview. My inclination would be NOT to use this as a source.
Although I can understand the concern over this, this source does nothing more than compile all the relevant information about her various relationships. Nothing wrong with that, is there? Krimuk|90 (talk) 02:22, 30 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
There is, unfortunately. I'm not even sure it would count as a RS, and certainly not for a FA. Sarastro1 (talk) 18:11, 30 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Replaced. Krimuk|90 (talk) 01:47, 31 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • The final Mirror ref (ref 133) is also a problem as it looks like a rehash from somewhere else. It is used as a ref for "The family lived in Bermuda until 2009, and as of 2016, live in Bedford Hills in New York." I'm not sure what it is being used to support, possibly that they lived in Bermuda? That they live in Bedford Hills? It does not support that they live there in 2016 as it is a 2014 article and does not mention that the couple lived in Bermuda, only that her husband's family were from there. Digging further, the Telegraph ref for that sentence supports that they lived in Bermuda until 2009 but again, does not support their current home.
Replaced with a better source. Krimuk|90 (talk) 02:22, 30 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • The first Express reference (ref 38) is problematic as it is a piece which re-hashes a few old interviews but is not a straight interview. I would not be comfortable using it as a ref at the moment.
The source supports two statements. One, her preparation for the Zorro roles, and second, a quote by Geoffrey Macnab. I think that's okay, isn't it? I don't see anything overly problematic with it. Krimuk|90 (talk) 02:22, 30 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Do the statements come from a direct quotation? If not, I'd be inclined to try to find the original source; I doubt the Express did its own interview. Sarastro1 (talk) 18:11, 30 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I honestly don't see why this should be a problem. I couldn't find this information in other sources, so it does seem to be written originally for the Express. Krimuk|90 (talk) 01:47, 31 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Ref 93 from the Express is similar, and I am not happy using it.
Replaced it. Krimuk|90 (talk) 02:22, 30 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Ref 94 from the Express is an interview but looks to be used to support that this was her comeback film. Probably OK.
  • The Herald Sun reference (ref 17) is an interview, BUT seems to be used to support statements that are not quotations from ZJ. A bit of a problem using this then.
I believe the Herald Sun interview to be quite legit actually. Even if some statements are not "direct quotes", they did conduct an interview with her and may be paraphrased statements. Krimuk|90 (talk) 02:22, 30 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
OK if it is an original interview, I'd support that. And I think that otherwise, the Herald Sun is dubious as it's a definite tabloid source. Sarastro1 (talk) 18:11, 30 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Ref 4 comes from a Fox News "Did you Know" type thing. This needs a better source as it is used to support her Irish Ancestry.
Replaced source. Krimuk|90 (talk) 02:22, 30 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
The People references are quite decent, and are used in multiple FA-class articles. I don't think there should be a problem using them. Krimuk|90 (talk) 02:22, 30 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Hmmm. WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS and all that... I know little about this source, but a quick glance online and even at the article on it here makes me think it is a huge no-no as a source. And, to be honest, better safe than sorry I think. Sarastro1 (talk) 18:11, 30 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I've used the People source 7 times in this article to cite key information in it. The source is as much a part of celebrity pop-culture as Vogue and Vanity Fair. I strongly believe there's nothing wrong in using this. Firstly, People magazine is not regarded as a "tabloid" and is the leading magazine on Hollywood celebrities. In this article, The New York Times calls it the "leader in the field [of the celebrity environment]". I know that reviewers invoke WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS when they feel strongly about something, even though it's generally acceptable. However, unless we are explicitly forbidden from using the Express and People sources by the coordinators, I don't see why they shouldn't be used. Especially when these sources are the ones that extensively cover pertinent information about contemporary celebrities. Krimuk|90 (talk) 01:47, 31 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I've had a look at the links, but there is still nothing to convince me that it is a reliable source. Being a leader in the field of celebrity does not make you reliable; the Sun or Mirror in England would claim the same thing. I think I'd like some further opinions on this; it is the reviewers, not the co-ordinators, who make the call, and others may disagree with me. Sarastro1 (talk) 10:30, 31 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I've asked for more eyes at WT:FAC to see what others think on this issue. Sarastro1 (talk) 10:34, 31 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@ Sarastro1 -- I saw your alert (I assume this is what's called a "ping") and am sending one back. Just flipped through the sources again. Have you changed things? This time I noticed Scotland's Daily Record (three instances) and the New York Post.Singora (talk) 14:15, 31 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]

And what's exactly wrong with those sources? Krimuk|90 (talk) 14:49, 31 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Responding to Sarastro1's post on WT:FAC, WP:BLP says: "Material should not be added to an article when the only sourcing is tabloid journalism. When material is both verifiable and noteworthy, it will have appeared in more reliable sources."
    There are several problematic sources in the article: Daily Express, Sun, Daily Mirror, Daily Record, People, New York Post, AskMen.com. These are best avoided in BLPs, because they focus on trivia and scandal, and they're often demeaning to women. SarahSV (talk) 15:39, 31 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Among the sources above, the usage of Daily Mirror is discouraged by WP:PUS. Cheers, FrB.TG (talk) 19:28, 31 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
As I've discussed with Sarastro above, the so-called "tabloid" sources are only being used when they've conducted an interview with the actress. In those cases, their usage is perfectly acceptable. These aren't being used to add salacious gossip, but only to cite claims made by the actress herself which are either quotes or paraphrased statements. The ones that were indeed focusing on the gossip have already been removed. And also, People magazine is not a tabloid, and is very much a reputable source for celebrities.Krimuk|90 (talk) 02:11, 1 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
The AskMen reference isn't an interview, and it insults her husband. The Daily Express isn't an interview. I can only see part of this Daily Record article, but it doesn't appear to be an interview. Is there anything in the tabloid sources that you can't find elsewhere?
I would remove the first paragraph of the "In the media" section: sex appeal, sexiest, etc. SarahSV (talk) 14:36, 2 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I've replaced the tabloid sources where the information found is "not exclusive". The ones that are in use at the moment are only used to cite information that I couldn't find anywhere else.
Coming to your second point, I see no reason in removing mentions of her "sex appeal" and her appearing in lists of the "sexiest celebrities". A person's sex appeal, regardless of their gender, will be spoken about if they have received significant media attention for them. In the case of Zzeta-Jones, her sex appeal has been well-documented by the media (similar to that of actors and actresses who have FA-class biographies such as Marilyn Monroe, Brad Pitt, and Angelina Jolie). Please remember that it isn't our duty to cherry-pick information which we believe to be correct. If a certain section of the media considers her to be a sexy, opportunistic trophy wife, then I will make a note of that in the article. I will also add the same amount of emphasis on those media reports that believe she is an extraordinarily talented actress. The balance of both is required, not one in favour of the other. Krimuk|90 (talk) 01:57, 3 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • I think that the use of The Sun and The Mirror as sources are both fine in this context: as far as I can see, they are direct interviews and we are directly quoting CZ-J's words. If they were secondary quotes, or re-hashes there could be problems, but as it stands they are fine. Sarastro1, is that also your opinion after the changes? – SchroCat (talk) 07:23, 3 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Krimuk90, I've started reading through this, and it's a well-written article, so I want to thank you for the work you've put into it. My only concern at this point is the small number of low-quality sources and the way Zeta-Jones is portrayed at several points.
Featured articles have to be based on high-quality sources: "Claims are verifiable against high-quality reliable sources ..." (WP:WIAFA). This is a BLP, so WP:BLPSOURCES applies too. It's about a woman, so it would be good if you could avoid the worst of the sexist sources. I know this isn't easy. But for example AskMen.com is used, and look what they say. This is a website that compiles lists of "least desirable women": their "most desirable" consists of "jaw-dropping beauties, noted intellectuals and chicks with big breasts." [2]
You've mentioned Brad Pitt and sex appeal, but it's barely mentioned in his article and/or prefaced with "perceived." Yet in this article it seems laboured and is in the lead. (There was even a "beauty and brains" reference in the nomination.)
Academic studies have shown that women on Wikipedia are often objectified by being described in terms of their sexuality, appearance and relationships. It's one of the issues we're meant to look out for. (For example, see Eduardo Graells-Garrido, Mounia Lalmas, Filippo Menczer, "First Women, Second Sex: Gender Bias in Wikipedia", Proceedings of the 26th ACM Conference on Hypertext & Social Media, arXiv, 9 February 2015, p. 8).
SarahSV (talk) 15:45, 3 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you, but I've already said everything that I've had to say about this, and I am not interested in making a political statement with my edits. I'll give equal weight to all different opinions, and the sex appeal aspect of her personality is pertinent information that should not be removed. I'll stick to that. Krimuk|90 (talk) 15:56, 3 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
But you are making a political statement with your edits; that's what bothers me. I edited the lead and was reverted, so can you show me sources for "Zeta-Jones initially established herself in Hollywood with roles that highlighted her sex appeal ..."? It sounds as though you're implying she wasn't picked because she was a good actor, but because she was sexy. I'd like to see what sources you base that on. SarahSV (talk) 16:03, 3 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Stop making sexy a bad word. It isn't. You are doing both men and women a disservice by such narrow-minded thinking. No one said she was picked for being sexy, but the roles relied SIGNIFICANTLY on her sex appeal and that'a proven fact. Look at the reviews for her performances in Mask of Zorro and Entrapment, and most reviewers talk about her sexuality in them. Her roles in her first few films did rely a lot on her sexuality. Did it end there? No!!! She went on to establish herself as an actress next, with award-winning performances. Look at the first paragraph of her elaborate nytimes interview: "ON screen Catherine Zeta-Jones has been a famous smoulderer, a one-woman heat source. When Antonio Banderas unfastens her bodice in “The Mask of Zorro” — the 1998 movie that introduced her to most Americans, including her husband,Michael Douglas — you feel he ought to be wearing oven mitts. Watching her slither in her jewel-thief cat suit in “Entrapment” (1999), Sean Connery visibly liquefies." How the bloody hell does that not make a reference to her sex appeal? Krimuk|90 (talk) 03:02, 4 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
And your repeated indignation over how the media writes about women or men is redundant here. Not being comfortable with well-sourced media reports is not an existing FA criteria, so i suggest we keep our personal opinions out of this. I'll write about what the media reports and not what other editors want me to write about. Krimuk|90 (talk) 05:07, 4 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Coments from BU Rob13

[edit]
Withdrawing from this; I'm tired of being attacked as a "bad-faith" editor for asking for what amounts to a procedural hold. ~ RobTalk 05:35, 3 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
  • Oppose on the basis of stability until the RfC relating to the infobox is closed. While one side of that dispute has decided not to continue reverting, that issue should be resolved before this article is promoted. Any editor has my permission to strike this oppose in good-faith after the RfC is closed by an uninvolved editor, in case I forget. ~ RobTalk 20:39, 2 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
This is a particularly disruptive and WP:POINTy oppose. There is a discussion on the talk page about the IB which has nothing to do with the FAC or whether this article passes or not. There is a consensus (from c. 5 years ago, if memory serves) that the question of IBs doesn't have any impact on FACs, and I urge the co-ordinators to ignore this oppose from one of the parties who is forcing the IB issue on the talk page. – SchroCat (talk) 22:18, 2 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Stability is an FA criteria. I cited it in my oppose. The presence or absence of an infobox does not affect FA (and shouldn't). How that discussion is resolved does not affect FA (and shouldn't). But this is a significant dispute that has resulted in blocks for personal attacks. It began with edit-warring. That should be resolved before this goes to FA, whichever way it winds up being resolved. I'm not saying this won't go to FA. I haven't given it a thorough review, but based on what I have read, it should! But there's no deadline for that, and we can afford to wait a week for that dispute to be closed. I encourage the co-ordinators not to reject this FAC on the basis of my oppose. I'm just saying wait a bit, and I've even said any editor may strike my oppose once my concern has been resolved. ~ RobTalk 23:57, 2 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
? This is not significant at all: it is minor and the to-and-fro has been minimal (not even enough to raise a report at 3RR, let alone an oppose here. There is no question over the article's stability. If you are going to "encourage the co-ordinators not to reject this FAC on the basis of my oppose" then it is not a valid oppose and you're just playing games with the system to be POINTy. – SchroCat (talk) 00:57, 3 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I think it's very clear what my concerns are (ongoing dispute with past history of edit wars and behavioral blocks), how they can be resolved (waiting until the discussion is closed, which should be very soon), and how they relate to the FA criteria (stability). How is it gaming the system to suggest that an article with stability issues, which is a requirement for GA, let alone FA, should wait a very short period of time before getting promoted? ~ RobTalk 01:27, 3 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
The minor to-and-fro hasn't even reached the level of a 3RR report, so it's a straw man to claim that the article is unstable. The behavioural blocks are another straw man (two editors got heated over a minor point on the talk page - no effect on the article, or the FAC. Your own comment on ignoring your oppose is enough to show you're grandstanding for effect, rather than seriously opposing. I'm going to disengage now as your inexperience at FAC is showing too much and I can guess what the co-ordinators will make of your dubious claims toward "stability". – SchroCat (talk) 01:52, 3 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
It may be a moot point as I'm not in a position to close the nom at this stage, but a talk page discussion about an infobox hardly constitutes a stability issue in itself. The wording of the FAC criterion in question defines stability as there being no ongoing edit wars, and no major changes to content unrelated to the FAC. An infobox is essentially a style consideration; by its nature it should be primarily about the presentation of selected content that already exists in the article, not content per se. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 02:22, 3 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
This is obviously an attempt by Light show to disrupt the stability of the article to further their own agenda. Not a coincidence after all, that his peer who supports the inclusion of infoboxs opposes the nomination for stability issues. Editors point out that there is none. So Light show goes ahead and creates a stability issue! This FAC is turning out to be a lynch mob! Krimuk|90 (talk) 02:42, 3 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
To be very clear, I do not oppose based on stability issues related to Light snow's edits. I apologize if you feel attacked Krimuk90. That is very much not my intention, and I think you should get FA credit for this article. I'm just appealing to the idea that we should wait a very short period of time before doing the promotion to allow a dispute to settle. After all, there is no deadline. ~ RobTalk 05:33, 3 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Moxy

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The issues of the infobox should have no barring on this current FA review. The article is stable and has had some recent major improvements (great job Krimuk90 and al others) I support the current version for FA status. I normally dont comment in these reviews but felt that i should speak-up. I also had a concern with sources....however Krimuk90 has done a good job with replacing many and explain why some less desirable ones are there. I do encourage Light show to please discuss any issues here - because as seen above the edits may not be seen in a good light. I assume all here are more interested in a better article then a box or a misplaced quote -- Moxy (talk) 03:21, 3 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you very much, Moxy. Much appreciated. :) Krimuk|90 (talk) 03:36, 3 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by Light show

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  • Would not support based on some of the problems I've found. I don't usually comment on FAC pages, but since I've already tried to correct errors at the article I'll link to them with my comments.
    • Misleading use of quote regarding one of her major films, Entrapment. My attempted edit is explained here. The misused quote from the NY Times, rather than being complimentary of her role, was almost the opposite. It was a stupid quote in that context and I honestly hope it was used there in error.
    • Misuse of source commentary. I explained here.. The statement I deleted was incorrect and not supported by any of the sources given. It was also one of the five times the overused phrase "sex appeal" was used in the article.
    • Another similar error here with the repetitious "sex appeal" term being the primary, if not the only contribution of her character.
    • The lead is obviously important and should be an accurate summary of key facts from the body. I rephrased a sentence here, which included irrelevant aspects. Namely, that her illness was "well documented by the media." In fact, as the article states with cites, she tried to maintain her privacy about her health issues until the media circus and tabloids uncovered it. Hence, the statement seems to reward the media for uncovering this private matter, rather than making the health statement simple. This was a borderline violation of BLP privacy issues which I tried to fix.
    • There are a number of large masses of introductory trivia, such as this one, which nearly buried the key fact about the film she was in. None of that trivia was worth including, and certainly not before the substance of the paragraph. As part of that cleaning up and rephrasing for clarity, I added what seemed like a valuable quote by her co-star about Z-J. It described, from someone who worked with her, some of her important attributes as an actress on one of her successful film. On the other hand, for one of her unsuccessful and less memorable films, the editor thought it was worth adding another long quote, "In a scathing review, the critic Mick LaSalle wrote that "Zeta-Jones seems less an actress and more a pretty face, and not an interesting one at that," which tells us nothing about the person, only the character.
    • Another overuse of the "sex appeal" phrase was replaced here with something more accurate, rather than implied and redundant.
    • Same overuse of that phrase in the lead. I did not find the use of that phrase in any of the cites where it was used. However, I replaced it here, with three characteristics she was noted for as an actress, and which came directly from the cited body text.

I wasn't intending to do any major edits to her article and only note some of the first issues that stood out. Nor did I visit this FAC until now, thanks to Krimuk90's gratuitious ABF and Moxy's suggestion to come here. The problems noted seem easy to fix, which I did, although I assume there may be others. I also commented about the edits at the article talk page.--Light show (talk) 04:52, 3 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

All of these are comments are based on your personal preference and aren't related to any existing FA-criteria. The comments on her sex-appeal are all well-sourced, and any reviewer willing to do a source review can easily verify that. I'm absolutely sick of these editors who are opposing this nomination based on what they deem should be written. I can't make everyone happy, so if these bad-faith comments continue, I'm no longer interested in being involved with this process. Krimuk|90 (talk) 05:00, 3 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Infoboxes are used in over 90% of FA bios. The one deleted from the article against a 10-year acceptance and against current overwhelming consensus, downgrades it IMO for many readers. For instance, the last sentence of the lead says she is married to Michael Douglas and has two children. An infobox would clarify when they married and any of her previous marriages, if she had any, or other children. It would give her age. It would state what year she started acting. It would list any other career aspects besides acting.
  • Trivia from tabloids doesn't improve the article, especially without context. In this case, which I tried to delete, it harms it. --Light show (talk) 05:20, 3 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
It's disconcerting that you consider your poorly-written and atrociously sourced attempt at fixing these so-called issues, which other editors have criticised as well, to be better than the current version. Krimuk|90 (talk) 05:23, 3 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Any decent FAC reviewer can point out that Light Show's version is far off from FA, or even GA standard. He has removed well-sourced information from The Philadelphia Inquirer and has chosen to use this as a source: "source=Entertainment writer Gayl Murphy". No kidding, that's the reference! He has also added this quote to the article: "What can you say about Catherine, except that she's a gal? She's beautiful, tough, likeable and completely charming when you meet her in person. And most of all, she can really act" and is using something called Visimag as a source. He is also using youtube vidoes from dubious publishers. How does that count as an improvement? And you criticize this version that multiple editors have supported. Krimuk|90 (talk) 05:26, 3 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
The Philadelphia Inquirer cite was fixed 2 minutes after it was accidentally deleted. The massive trivia aspect of the cite has been commented on above. That indecent and atrocious Visimag source is actually from the review in Film Review magazine, as the source made clear. The atrocious quote by Gayl Murphy was taken from the same source you already used 7 times in the article. I avoid using tabloids as sources like the Daily Mirror. The dubious video publishers were all licensed companies with legal rights to post them on Youtube for promo. That was explained on the article talk page. They were allowable as fair use and added a lot to the commentary where they were used. Any other non-issues? --Light show (talk) 05:47, 3 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Non-issue? You must be kidding. Those are basic FA-requirements. I suggest you familiarise yourself with the policy before you review another FAC nomination. In the very talk page, SchroCat called your edits "awful, both in terms of behaviour and in lack of standards". Nothing to say about that? Krimuk|90 (talk) 05:53, 3 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
FAC criterion defines stability as there being no ongoing edit wars, and no major changes to content unrelated to the FAC. Yet for no apparent reason you started an edit war and resorted to a PA and ABF blitz in your comments to me. As can be seen, most of my edits were minor word or phrase changes, and some trimming, but nothing major. All were explained. I did not create what you label a new version. Yet you needlessly created a hostile atmosphere instead of a collaborative one. You've made major issues out of minor issues. You don't need to keep repeating your PA comments here, so please stop replying to all my comments. Thanks. --Light show (talk) 06:10, 3 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Stop replying to your comments? You are the one who decided to comment at an FAC in which I'm the nominator, and now you're trying to shut me up when other editors are disagreeing with you. How convenient. Krimuk|90 (talk) 06:12, 3 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
As for the issue of sex appeal, read the first paragraph of her elaborate nytimes interview: "ON screen Catherine Zeta-Jones has been a famous smoulderer, a one-woman heat source. When Antonio Banderas unfastens her bodice in “The Mask of Zorro” — the 1998 movie that introduced her to most Americans, including her husband,Michael Douglas — you feel he ought to be wearing oven mitts. Watching her slither in her jewel-thief cat suit in “Entrapment” (1999), Sean Connery visibly liquefies." How the bloody hell does that not make a reference to her sex appeal? Each review of her performances in The Mask of Zorro and Entrapment (and a few other later films) makes note of how much her beauty and sexuality benefited the films. This Los Angeles magazine source makes a very similar claim. In addition, this Daily Telegraph source, this Marie Claire source are just few of the sources that talk about her sex appeal. There are many, many more. So stop misrepresenting the sources to further your own agenda of somehow making "sexy" seem to be a bad word. It's not. Krimuk|90 (talk) 06:51, 3 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
No one claims she doesn't have sex appeal, and yes that's a reasonable paraphrase. But that phrase is repeated throughout the article, and some of the cites where it's used did not support it. For instance, "...The Mask of Zorro (1998) and Entrapment (1999) relied predominantly on her sex appeal," was not only inaccurate per the sources, but undermined her other contributions per the sources. Most of the sources throughout the article refer to her beauty, intelligence, and acting quality in different degrees. You called it "fluff." But so you don't feel alone, I had a similar discussion with Marilyn Monroe's article editor about why the phrase "dumb blonde" was repeated 6 times, while most of the major book sources used in the article barely mentioned it. It's still used twice in just the lead. And for Z-J, a lead statement such as "established herself in Hollywood with roles that highlighted her sex appeal," when it's not well supported, effectively diminishes her other attributes and imbalances the bio.--Light show (talk) 07:18, 3 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
It doesn't diminish her abilities at all. That's why I said, she "initially" established herself due to her sex appeal. After that, she made a name for herself by sheer talent and that comes across by the numerous awards she won for her work. Also in the media section, I say:Zeta-Jones' success in her early Hollywood films The Mask of Zorro (1998) and Entrapment (1999) relied predominantly on her sex appeal, but Geoffrey Macnab, the editor of the Sight & Sound magazine believes that she went on to establish herself as an actress by defying "skepticism from people who doubted she would succeed". Both the initial phase and later stage is balanced out in this statement. Krimuk|90 (talk) 07:26, 3 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Not in my opinion. The first part is false, as a straight fact and per the sources, and the second part is trivia and adds little. They do not balance each other. That was one of the reasons I felt the direct quote by Banderas would have helped a bit. --Light show (talk) 07:33, 3 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
No it doesn't. That's an atrocious quote. Anyway, that's it. I'm done replying to you. Please go ahead and spread your hate elsewhere. Krimuk|90 (talk) 07:35, 3 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Note to delegates: I'm done interacting with Light show. His so-called "improvements" to the article were deemed "awful, both in terms of behaviour and in lack of standards" by SchroCat, and I stand by that argument to the "concerns" he raised in this review. I sincerely hope that this does not negatively impact this nomination. Krimuk|90 (talk) 07:41, 3 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Concerns about Light show and his reasons for posting here when he "doesn't normally comment at FAC" have been raised on the talk page.♦ Dr. Blofeld 20:20, 3 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]


Withdraw nomination: I'm done being attacked by these crowd of horrendous editors such as SlimVirgin, Littleoliveoil and Light show. Let them write the article. I'm done here. Krimuk|90 (talk) 01:36, 5 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Closing comment -- I'll honour the withdrawal request but I hope that after tempers have cooled (perhaps after another peer review as well) we see this article back at FAC. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 12:24, 5 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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