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A BBC study finds that, as of October 2017[update], the Taliban presently maintains control of or has some territorial presence in 70% of Afghanistan, with full control of 14 districts (totaling 4% of the country) and demonstrating an open physical militant presence in 263 others (encompassing the remaining 66% of the group's occupied territory). (Reuters)
An Amtrak train carrying Republicanlawmakers to a retreat in West Virginia collides with a garbage truck in Crozet, Virginia. At least one person dies and one person is seriously injured. The White House states that there are no serious injuries among members of Congress or their staff. (NPR)
Renaud Hardy, a suspected serial killer from Mechelen, Belgium, confesses to two murders and two attempted murders ahead of his February assizes case in Tongeren. (De Standaard)
MPs vote 236–220 in favour of moving out of the Houses of Parliament for six years while the Palace of Westminster undergoes repairs at a cost of around £4 billion. The move out of Westminster will not occur before 2025. It will be the first time MPs have moved out of the Palace of Westminster since World War II. (Sky News)
Private messages between former President of the Generalitat of CataloniaCarles Puigdemont and Antoni Comín, the exiled regional minister of Health, come to light, in which the former President confesses that the secession procedure "is over", opening, once again, tensions between the pro-independence political parties and more confusion about the future of Catalonia. (The Guardian)
The upcoming Formula One season will abandon the practice of using "grid girls", arguing that the practice does not "resonate" with Formula One's values. Four days before, the Professional Darts Corporation abandoned the use of "walk-on girls" to accompany men onto the stage. (CNN)
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If you exclude the ~1/6th of lunars too shallow to see with the naked eye and the ~1/30th of solars too shallow to see with the naked eye, solars are more common globally. Another ~1/12th of lunars are so shallow they look barely there. Only 64% of lunars have the hard edge of the full shadow like all solars do. Total lunars are also less frequent than total solars worldwide. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 16:37, 1 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. We don't normally post lunar eclipses, and the super/blue bits are both arbitrary and irrelevant. They don't make it any more or less impressive to look at. Some media sources have covered this in the mistaken impression that the coincidence is astronomically significant, but it really isn't. It's just a lunar eclipse - nice to look at, but not ITN material. Modest Geniustalk11:17, 1 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose, as pointed above, somewhat overhyped. 3-4 supermoons per year, lunar eclipses are common, blue moon is kind of an arbitrary term. --Tone12:37, 1 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The combination happens once every 43 point something years on average at an average location, almost double that if it has to be night when it happens so you can see it (weather permitting), maybe 20 or 21 years if it doesn't have to be blue nor visible in your time zone, just somewhere. The last one was 35 years ago but that wasn't blue at a wester longitude than Iceland so the last one in America was centuries ago which is why this is so hyped. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 16:06, 1 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Reopening, sorry, but two opposes isn't snow. I'd be happy to support this, but only as a report of a (simple) total lunar eclipse (omitting the arbitrary "super" and "blue", see altblurb). Total lunar eclipses aren't that common, occurring on average annually (see List of 21st-century lunar eclipses). This was a big celestial event, viewable by billions and in the news even here in Europe where it was out of sight. We also get some nice pictures. --LukeSurltc13:42, 1 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Not quite, it's 0.81 and 0.85/year in our centuries (anyone from the 19th century reading this?), 0.87/yr for the century centered on the millennium parties (both years), 0.90/yr for the first half of this century, 0.7005/yr 3000 BC to 3000 AD average (which covers so many of the slightly speeding up ~600 year cycles at which rarity pulsates that it hardly matters if that's a whole number of cycles or not). The 9th century AD had 0.89/yr which exceeds the other 59 centuries of the longest astronomer/non-Young Earth creationist catalog I could find, we live in a time of extreme TLE frequency.(rarity of these slugs (0-8/century) also pulsates each ~600 years, 38% of 21st century TLEs are these twice a generation slugs) (the extreme amount of TLEs in the 2000s (1/yr) and 2010s (1.1) is because both had a slug of the most possible TLEs in a row in the shortest possible time. The next isn't till 2032) Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 20:48, 1 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Comment added an ALT2, in case folks find the area where it was visible interesting (I would). Still undecided on significance, but thought I'd mention that the "blue" part of this is an entirely arbitrary consequence of the way our calendars are set out, but the "super" part is an actual astronomical phenomenon, a consequence of the moon's orbit. Vanamonde (talk) 14:14, 1 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose – Lunar eclipses aren't terribly uncommon, but sadly this one had so many "special" (read: happenstance) things to add that media went to town with it. ~ Cyclonebiskit (chat) 14:18, 1 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The happenstance was the "super blue" bit, but the alt1 and alt2 versions of this nom consider the eclipse, which was, regardless of happenstance, a big event. --LukeSurltc17:27, 1 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Comment Undecided on ITN relevance but I find the article a bit light on prose and seems more a dumping ground for a LOT of free imagery. I'd be more likely to support this if this was more prose-heavy. --Masem (t) 14:20, 1 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Comment - I'm aware this is in the news, but it's hard to view this as anything more than a random coincidence of astronomical events.--WaltCip (talk) 14:57, 1 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Weak Oppose although the conditions met are rare, the media is, as the users above note, overhype this. Lunar eclipse are more common than people think, they occur more often than solar eclipses without a doubt. SamaranEmerald (talk) 15:14, 1 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Support for the same reason I did the bombogenesis. The purpose of ITN is not to decide whether something is too overhyped to be in the news. The purpose of ITN is to point readers to encyclopedic information about things that are in the news. Let's counter hype with enlightenment instead of sweeping it under the rug! — Kpalion(talk)15:34, 1 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Support The above opposes all set their own elusive and ill-defined criteria for what is, and is not, an event which is in the news. One way to tell if an event is in the news is to look to see if the event is in the news. This one is, and our article is of sufficient quality. I see no reason to keep it off the main page. Prefer Alt2. --Jayron3217:30, 1 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Support As Jayron32 says, this event was prominent in the news and I admired the moon myself last night for this reason. ITN is often quite stale and boring and so needs items like this to keep it fresh. Andrew D. (talk) 17:38, 1 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Support I've thought about this, and I think that although some are suggesting it's "just a lunar eclipse", it's slightly more than that as evidenced by the large media coverage, certainly from where I'm sitting. The Rambling Man (talk) 17:59, 1 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Support per Jayron32, I'm not in Oceania or east Asia but I've seen this in the news. Certainly it'd be an even bigger story there. Davey2116 (talk) 18:07, 1 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Support while lunar eclipses in general are not uncommon, this such occurrence is with a super moon and a blue moon coinciding, such an event would roughly be equivalent to winning the highest jackpot in a lottery. Hornetzilla78 (talk) 18:40, 1 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Support - in the news, article is interesting, and science is underrepresented at ITN. Statistically, this is an astronomical rarity, if one indulges the pun. Meets the notability threshold. Stormy clouds (talk) 18:50, 1 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose Car X travels around the track at 30 mph. Car Y travels around the track at 29 mph. That X will occasionally lap Y is a given, the occasions of which are utterly unremarkable. If a blue moon is insignificant, it doesn't lend significance to another event by coincidence. Also, there are no refs in the "timing" and "related eclipses" section. GCG (talk) 19:36, 1 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Support this hasn't happened in 35 years. How is that common? Plus if one's going to argue lasting impact, then we can remove solar eclipses from ITNR since they have no impact either. Banedon (talk) 21:46, 1 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Now the proposed blurb. Rather than trying to concisely list geographic visibility, I've referred to the last occurrence per the lede. Happy for this to be undone, if others deem it unnecessary. Stephen22:53, 1 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Post-posting oppose - Ugh, seriously? Yes I realise this was in the news, but can't we show a little discernment? This was a hyped up story for the sake of clicks. At least please remove the "blue" part because that is an accident of the calendar. Adpete (talk) 22:59, 1 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
OK remove oppose because we've posted lunar eclipses before. But the actual celestial event (lunar eclipse / supermoon) isn't uncommon and last happened in 2015. Adpete (talk) 00:01, 2 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Post-posting support The main oppose argument seems to be "overhyped". Okay, yeah, it was. So what? The title of the section is "In the news", not "Stuff that happened that is actually significant and that our editors care about". It is, most definitely, "in the news". -A lad insane(Channel 2)23:15, 1 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Post-posting mild support A phenomena that occurs once in 150 years (edit: or even 35 years) certainly sets this apart from other run-of-the-mill lunar eclipses. That said, the article relies a lot on photos and could use some expanding with more references and text. FallingGravity23:41, 1 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Comment - There's something seriously messed up about our current consensus at ITN when this story is passed because "in the news means in the news", but Trump's SotU address, which received widespread coverage, gets shot down because "it's in the news but it's really not that big of a deal".--WaltCip (talk) 12:03, 2 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not sure. The SotU address happens every year (like the Queen's speech) and has very little impact on anything or anyone outside a tiny microcosm of speech writers. This astronomical event is global and rare. The Rambling Man (talk) 12:10, 2 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
It's a confluence of astronomical phenomena that have no actual measurable impact on people's lives. At least the SotU address outlines actual policy positions. All I'm saying is it's clear "in the news" is not the defining standard for which something gets posted, since the SotU address did receive global coverage.--WaltCip (talk) 12:16, 2 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I know what it is, and it enthrals people, unlike the meaningless ramblings of Trump which bore most Americans, let alone the rest of the English-speaking world. The Rambling Man (talk) 12:19, 2 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Which again is not the point. To Walt's original point: we would do well to mentally amend the phrase "in my opinion" to every comment at ITNC. This event is not inherently significant or insignificant, and there is scarcely a posting decision made here that is truly ridiculous. Sure, it's irritating to see a certain editor's interpretation of the criteria change from nom to nom and back again (usually based on which side of the pond a story is occurring), but the doesn't mean that "consensus" is not working. GCG (talk) 12:32, 2 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Of course whatever people say here is their "opinion", what would make you think otherwise? Interpretation of what constitutes "news" and what constitutes "encyclopedic value" and what constitutes "interest to our English-speaking audience" are all subjective and of course that can change on a nomination to nomination basis. It's bizarre to think we even have to spell this out. The Rambling Man (talk) 13:00, 2 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Walt pointed out that an item being *literally* in the news is sometimes seen as relevant (see your vote on this nom) and sometimes rejected as gossip/hype (see your vote on SOTU), even by the same editor. The problem in my opinion is that voters tend to get a gut feeling about if a given story should be posted and select whichever criteria serve that feeling and reject the rest. If they can't find any of the actual criteria that support their feeling, they'll make one up (see your vote on Rasual Butler). We should all do better to consider our own blind-spots (I myself have trouble not feeding trolls, as one can plainly see). ITN is like laws and sausage: you really don't want to see how it's made, but the end product is fine. GCG (talk) 14:10, 2 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I've always got the readers in mind. The moon is global and this is a rare occurrence. Trump's ongoing nonsensical ramblings are barely newsworthy, but don't worry, there's bound to be another clanger right around the corner where we can reignite this tedious debate over what constitutes "news" here. The Rambling Man (talk) 14:14, 2 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
Does proseline fall within the ordinary quality standards. I acknowledge it's not great, but I don't see it mentioned in the policy (BTW, I am not the IP that removed your tag). GCG (talk) 12:19, 1 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Weak support The proseline mess (which is dreadful) does not, of itself, keep this off the main page for me (it's a yellow-level tag right now; the guidance for ITN says that orange or red is the no-go conditions). Otherwise, it's tolerable. Not good, but not bad enough to keep it off the main page. --Jayron3213:22, 1 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
[Closed] President Trump's State Of The Union address[edit]
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Nominator's comments: Before you think I've completely lost my mind and move to snow-close this, hear me out. Not only is the entire front page of the NY Times splashed with analysis and coverage regarding this speech, which is a given, but the above sources I linked (Sydney Morning Herald, Al-Jazeera, BBC) cover this event on the front page of their websites. The State Of The Union address might well just be ceremonial puffery and grandstanding, but it does represent and showcase the present and future political positions of the US, many of which do have global impacts (Mexico, North Korea, Middle East, etc.). I realize it may be unusual for ITN to feature "just a speech", but if our baseline for posting items is that it's "in the news", there's no doubt that this event - temporal as it may be - fits the bill. WaltCip (talk) 12:14, 31 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose Nothing meaningful or newsworthy itself happened. I would not be opposed to posting something that meant something here, but this... wasn't it. --Jayron3212:15, 31 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Support I was so ready to oppose, but then...In the news? Quality updates? Might readers be looking for it? Might others be interested who weren't looking for it? This makes a stronger case on all 4 points than most everything we post. Significance is debatable, and there would be valid points on both sides, but that should not overwhelm the other criteria. GCG (talk) 12:26, 31 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose The SotU address always had been front page need after its given, with most papers have several pages discussing the finer points. Add the anti-Trump attitudes most media have, and that exaggerated the issue. Further, we at TIN do filter to avoid media sensationalism and bias, which is why this particular story is seemingly big worldwide. And we have to remember the SotU is all rhethoric, and doesn't set any policy, so while it might have touched on Mexico, NK, and other countries, it doesn't impact them in any way yet. --Masem (t) 12:41, 31 January 2018 (UTC) (This item edit-conflicted with Ammarpad's posting, so I restored it. --WaltCip (talk) 12:50, 31 January 2018 (UTC))[reply]
News is news. Calling the entire Western media into question over perceived biases against Trump pretty much jeopardizes their veracity as reliable sources for anything else.--WaltCip (talk) 12:50, 31 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
There are too many finer points to argue on the bias/reliability issue, but specifically here, the bias leads to the current media scrutinizing every trivial action that Trump doe s to create disproportionate coverage. That is sensationalism which ITN avoids. --Masem (t) 12:56, 31 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Exactly - it's in the news. And international importance is not a requirement for posting on ITN, even though I would argue that this speech is internationally important since it outlines policy positions.--WaltCip (talk) 12:51, 31 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I move to withdraw, considering that the tenor of ITN has still not changed sufficiently to have events such as this posted.--WaltCip (talk) 13:17, 31 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
Support - article is fine, but nominated under the wrong date (Jan 31). She died on Jan 30 according to the article. I've moved it to the correct date. -Zanhe (talk) 04:02, 2 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
Weak support content is a bit sparse, but seems adequately referenced. "Weak" only because I do not speak French or Italian, and am therefore unable to check the reliability of sources in those languages, of which there are many. Vanamonde (talk) 13:13, 1 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I've always wondered about that. The anglophone editor would reasonably validate refs in English; are we just supposed to take at face value that a foreign ref is not a recipe for Lasagna Bolognese? GCG (talk) 16:48, 1 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I'm afraid this is football so my interest is limited - at least one of the italian references was pointing at the host site rather than the target article - I fixed that, but I've not checked the references in any other regard. However if you're a pure anglophone you can try google translate which is pretty reasonable at large usage languages - just past the url of the reference you are trying to check into https://translate.google.co.uk/ and away to go. EdwardLane (talk) 10:03, 2 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
Weak oppose Can't find any verification of his roles in several entries in his filmography. Tagged those with cn tags. Need to have that cleaned up before posting. Otherwise it looks pretty good. --Jayron3219:11, 30 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Support Some sources discussed the soundtracks although it will be good to cite them along the table. But this is good for RD overall.–Ammarpad (talk) 12:49, 31 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose We do need to establish if he appeared on these albums. The stand-alone page for this one does not list him in its extensive personnel section. GCG (talk) 13:31, 31 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
That is unlikely to happen in time. I have removed the soundtracks, anyone wishing to look at the Glee discography can click the link provided. I have provided a reference for the release of the single.--Pawnkingthree (talk) 21:21, 31 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
Weak oppose for now. There's a few cn tags that need addressing before this goes up. It's also a bit light on prose, but it's minimally tolerable there. --Jayron3217:22, 30 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
A bus plunges into the Bhairab River after falling off a bridge in Murshidabad district, West Bengal, India, killing at least 36 people. The late response by rescuers to save passengers leads to violence between local residents and police. (BBC)
Toronto Police charge landscaper Bruce McArthur with a total of five counts of first-degree murder, after garden planters containing the remains of three additional people are found on a property linked to him. (CBC News)
The gunman who fatally shot four people at a car wash in the Melcroft suburb of Saltlick Township in Pennsylvania the previous day dies at a hospital from a self-inflicted gunshot wound. (CNN)
Minutes before the registration deadline, a second candidate, Moussa Mostafa Moussa, fulfills paperwork to participate in the 2018 presidential election. Leading opposition members called for a boycott, saying that a wave of repression has cleared the field of challengers to PresidentAbdel Fattah el-Sisi. (Reuters)
Comment it's still marked as a stub (it's more than that in my opinion) but the reference used about its name comes from a June 2017 article in Nature, so is this not already stale? The Rambling Man (talk) 10:18, 1 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Support Regardless of when the events actually happened, people are hearing about it now for being in the news and journals now, so likewise we should direct them to our article now. --Jayron3216:56, 1 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The appropriate time to "date" an item which is based on a scientific article is the date of the final publication of the paper. Paper publication is a long and convoluted process, and their results are often disseminated in other mediums first, but most good news sources wait for this final step. --LukeSurltc16:00, 2 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Seven survivors from the MV Butiraoi, six adults and a baby, are found in a dinghy and rescued, four days after the 50-passenger ferry sank in Kiribati. New Zealand rescuers say there is a lot of debris near the dinghy, but no sign of anyone else. (Sky News)
Incumbent Nicos Anastasiades wins the first round of the election, but is well short of an absolute majority required to win outright. He will face his rival from the 2013 election, Stavros Malas, in the second round. (Cyprus Mail)
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
Nominator's comments: While he died on Jan 25, I can't find reports prior to Jan 28 of the death, so placing on this date. However, article is not in good shape, needs updates and sourcing to at least get to quality. Masem (t) 19:24, 29 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
No, he was posted with a date of 25th January (the date he died) - which is why he's dropped off the bottom - but should have been posted with the 28th (the day the news of his death was released). So I've put him back for the time being ... though one more RD assuming Salling is posted and he'll drop off again. Black Kite (talk)01:29, 31 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
The nominated event is listed on WP:ITN/R, so each occurrence is presumed to be important enough to post. Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article and update meet WP:ITNCRIT, not the significance.
Strongly Oppose altering the target article. ITNR already means there is no standard for posting this other than quality. Let's at least maintain that. GCG (talk) 17:51, 31 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
The nominated event is listed on WP:ITN/R, so each occurrence is presumed to be important enough to post. Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article and update meet WP:ITNCRIT, not the significance.
EC, but same point, though I will note if there's something super unusual that is called out by sources, we could cover that. We're not going to cover a posthumous award for certain (unless it was one of those two). --Masem (t) 02:12, 29 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The thing though - and not to try to diminish her death or her winning, but it feels like a pity award, similar to how Heath Ledger was awarded Supporting Actor following his death. Additionally, given that we have limited space, putting that award over any others beyond the two noted diminsihes any other award as well as any lifetime recognition awards. I don't think we should give it that much focus at this point. --Masem (t) 03:32, 29 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Support pending expansion. I don't see Carrie Fisher's win as being of particular significance, but the Grammies are ITN/R, so a blurb is a given. Kurtis(talk)04:12, 29 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Not a given at all; this hasn't been posted for the past two years due to lack of updates. I mentioned this concern when I initially nominated for this to be pulled from ITN/R. If the Grammys are so notable as to warrant ITN/R posting, the article's updates should be more substantial.--WaltCip (talk) 11:52, 29 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose This is going to need a lot of work if it's to be posted on the main page. Article quality is really quite poor. In addition to the lack of prose there are huge gaps in referencing. -Ad Orientem (talk) 19:15, 29 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. Non-notable. Grammy Awards hit all-time ratings low
@Aaaaaabbbbb111: The Grammys are on the Recurring items list, meaning that they are presumed notable, and as such their notability is not at issue in this discussion. If you feel that the Grammys should not be on the list, please visit the talk page there to propose its removal. 331dot (talk) 07:51, 30 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose – formatting is an absolute disaster, difficult to navigate and information is not presently clearly to readers. Needs an overhaul to be worth posting. ~ Cyclonebiskit (chat) 07:06, 30 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Nominator's comments: Important development in Yemen. Aden was the main stronghold of Hadi's government, and this new round of fighting is pitting the Saudi-backed Hadi government against UAE-backed southern separatists. Whether this will affect the Saudi-Emirati alliance or not is yet to be seen. Fitzcarmalan (talk) 18:16, 28 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
Support RD - tentative support for blurb Although at 91 his death isn't unexpected, given the global reach of IKEA I think he's worthy of one. yorkshiresky (talk) 11:39, 28 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Support RD, blurb not necessary. He may have been the man behind IKEA, but it's his company more than the man who has the greater notability. cart-Talk11:48, 28 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Support blurb - One of the greatest businessmen in history. Multi-billion earning stores all around the world. Top of his field.BabbaQ (talk) 14:23, 28 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Support RD once article is improved - the sourcing could be improved, but more importantly, the article is quite uneven. The career section has a short paragraph on the founding of IKEA in 1948, and then jumps to 2013. Surely other things happened in those 65+ years? Also not sure about the section on Fascist involvement. It is noteworthy, but in terms of length seems disproportionate. In any case should be integrated with his biography, as it is part of his biography. 2A02:A451:8B2D:1:606C:B42E:92B9:6051 (talk) 15:29, 28 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Support blurb - substantial and long-lasting impact on the retail industry, who created one of the largest companies in existence. Clearly worthy of support for a blurb. Stormy clouds (talk) 15:54, 28 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Support RD. If we do a blurb, though, we'd have to split his name up and spread it all over the Main Page without useful instructions on how to read it, and then there'd be one vowel that we can't find anywhere. Black Kite (talk)15:57, 28 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
What does age have got to do with it? He was an extremely talented businessman. That he died at the age of 91 is irrelevant.BabbaQ (talk) 17:03, 28 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
No it’s not. How unexpected the death was is one of the criteria. Also the level of media coverage is not exceptional (not front page news everywhere like Mandela or Bowie) and he does not have much name recognition (IKEA does but not him personally.)Pawnkingthree (talk) 17:23, 28 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Please consider my support above RD only: Ikea is very notable, and that is why we'd post if it got bought out or went bankrupt. Such notability isn't fully inherited by the founder. --LukeSurltc17:29, 28 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Support blurb I'm generally opposed to RD blurbs, but this one seems to check the boxes. Because IKEA is a closely-held company, it's not incorrect to think of it as synonymous with Kamprad. Given it's wide expanse and influence, this seems like a good case to post. GCG (talk) 23:04, 28 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
They are basically saying that because Kamprad was normal and did not use a grand personality like for example Trump, he is not Blurb worthy. Just let it --BabbaQ (talk) 08:07, 29 January 2018 (UTC)go.[reply]
Support RD only - IKEA (and its founder) is notable, but not notable or game-changing enough to warrant a blurb. Also, to get here I had to go through the main page, main page:talk, main page kitchen, ITN:C dining room, and ITN:C kitchen. ZettaComposer (talk) 12:47, 29 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
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In the United States, billionaire Steve Wynn, best known for his casino hotels and resorts, resigns as Republican National Committee finance chairman following sexual harassment reports, including a $7.5 million settlement with a former worker at his Las Vegas resort. (Bloomberg via Fortune)
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
The nominated event is listed on WP:ITN/R, so each occurrence is presumed to be important enough to post. Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article and update meet WP:ITNCRIT, not the significance.
Well, more importantly, although they all had fair use rationales for inclusion in this article, each rationale was actually inaccurate, so I've removed the column. The Rambling Man (talk) 16:11, 28 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator's comments: The death toll is remarkable even for this violence prone corner of the world. Currently a stub but expansion is in progress. Ad Orientem (talk) 17:30, 27 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Support on significance; article is changing quickly, a quality assessment is not going to be meaningful at the moment. Death toll shockingly high. Vanamonde (talk) 17:37, 27 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Support on notability per Vanamonde93. Should we mention that this is the third major attack in Afghanistan in one week? I've added an alt-blurb to this effect. Davey2116 (talk) 19:14, 27 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Weak support it's nearly above stub so once we cross over that line, I'm all in. Been in my news feed all day, getting more and more and more tragic by the update. The Rambling Man (talk) 20:15, 27 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Support - Although the article is barely above stub-class, it is well-referenced and the death toll is unusually high for a suicide attack in Afghanistan. Kurtis(talk)06:51, 28 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
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Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
Comment - Several paragraphs, including most of the "Early life and local political career" section, lack sourcing. Support once these are fixed. -Zanhe (talk) 07:42, 27 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
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The article is more or less ready, just the infobox needs to be updated to reflect the number of casualties. --Tone10:58, 26 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Conditional Support I think the blurb should mention the fact that it is the country's deadliest fire in more than a decade but other than that. It seems more or less ready. ChieftanTartarus (talk) 11:22, 26 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Support Looks fine to me, but how is the Jecheon fire at all relevant? Connection seems trivial, but it's the second sentence in the lede. GCG (talk) 13:32, 26 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
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Still undecided on the significance, but if we do post this, the blurb should reflect the fact that these are protests against the celebration of Australia day on the anniversary of what, to indigenous people, is the anniversary of an invasion. Vanamonde (talk) 13:11, 27 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose for now. The target article was already on the main page on Jan 26 (On this day section). Right now there is one short sentence on these protests in this article, a sentence that incidentally is even shorter than the proposed blurb. It's not a sufficient update, and also does no allow to evaluate the significance of these protests. 2A02:A451:8B2D:1:413F:BE86:755D:4014 (talk) 13:27, 27 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
OpposeIt's not clear what the "significance of the developments" described here are. Opposition is commonplace and large scale rallies have occurred previously. GCG (talk) 14:20, 27 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose unless there's some indication of the significance of this. 60,000 people is a tiny number for a national protest and an article on it almost certainly wouldn't survive AfD (for comparison, that's less than 20% of the numbers who turned up to protest the UK government's ban on hunting with hounds, and Countryside March remains a redlink). It's possible that there's some particular significance to this particular rally, but if so the onus is on you to demonstrate its notability. ‑ Iridescent14:42, 27 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose Per above, also as suggested by article, this has been opposition growing each year, meaning its not an unusual rally at this point. --Masem (t) 14:44, 27 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose I’m not seeing the significance of this. The indigenous peoples’ opposition to Australia Day is well known so this protest is not really big news.Pawnkingthree (talk) 17:09, 27 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
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Tens of thousands of PentecostalChristians in Mbarara, Uganda take to the streets with songs of praise and thanks to hold a common celebration seen as a way of dedicating people’s lives to Christ and preaching the gospel across the entire district. (UG Christian News)
The Attorney General and the Head of the Anticorruption Commission of the UN, reported on a new case of corruption in the Superintendency of Tax Administration, leaving 9 people arrested, including the Former President of that organization. (ABC News)
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Oppose. If "smoking is bad for you" is really news to you, then congratulations, but I believe most of us are already aware. ‑ Iridescent20:23, 25 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose I read the header on my watchlist and thought "Count Iblis". This sort of story, along with pretty much all the Count's recent nominations, will never get a chance at ITN. This one included. Trivia at best, maybe DYK, but taking the two previous commentators' comments into account as well, not a snowball's chance. The Rambling Man (talk) 20:44, 25 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
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Nominator's comments: The closest the Doomsday Clock has ever come to midnight since 1953, when the US and Soviet Union tested atomic bombs. WaltCip (talk) 18:49, 25 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose for same reasons we did not post the adjustment in Jan 2015 and Jan 2017. It's a arbitrary measure, nothing objective about it. --Masem (t) 18:53, 25 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose Nah, man. It's a meaningless bit of trivia. It's like the terror alert rainbow system or any of those things. A non-story. --Jayron3219:09, 25 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. An arbitrary adjustment to a meaningless scale. This is just a nebulous warning from a self-appointed group, no reason for us to feature it. Modest Geniustalk19:24, 25 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
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Article:Neagu Djuvara (talk·history·tag) Recent deaths nomination (Post) News source(s):[8] Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
Comment The criticism section needs sourcing (I tagged it), and the Notable Works should have sourcing to establish why these are notable works as recognized by others. Otherwise, limit it to books he authored. --Masem (t) 18:55, 25 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Support The article is now good to go. @Masem: That section was added six years ago without source in WP:OR manner and never sourced. It can take ages to be fixed, (assuming it is true) given scarcity of reference about him in English. I have fixed that and also fixed notable work title to more neutral one. Pinging you to reasses the article. –Ammarpad (talk) 09:40, 26 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
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Weak Support - The article in its current state is a stub and doesn't have a whole lot of useful information. I support the inclusion on the condition that the article is extended with more information before it is included. I'd expect more information to be coming in relatively quickly. Other than that, seems notable enough. ChieftanTartarus (talk) 11:38, 25 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose Article is not main page ready yet. Not much useful information to give readers. Will check in periodically to see if things improve. --Jayron3213:25, 25 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Weak oppose with due condolences to the affected people, I'm not sure that this disaster is of sufficient magnitude to be considered global news. I'm not seeing anything unusual enough about the circumstances for this to be posted either. Infrastructure disasters happen every so often. Vanamonde (talk) 16:26, 25 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
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Several rockets fired from Syria strike the Turkish city of Kilis, near the Syria–Turkey border, killing at least one person and injuring 13 others. Turkey blames the YPG group. (Xinhuanet)
A dozen camels are disqualified from a beauty pageant at the King Abdulaziz Camel Festival, near Riyadh, after reports in the media about injections with botox. A veterinarian is caught performing plastic surgery to make the camels more attractive. Rules prohibit to change the natural form of participating camels. (NPR)
Larry Nassar is sentenced to 40 to 175 years in prison for molesting Olympic gymnasts and other women. Many of the accusers were children, who were told to not question authority. (Chicago Tribune)
Nominator's comments: The first primates created using the "real" cloning method (SCNT). BBC simply calls them the "first monkey clones". Zanhe (talk) 05:21, 26 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Comment I do feel this is ITN material but two things: first, I'd think we'd want to highlight the SCNT article too (the monkey article is very light on the science) and that's not in great shape. Second, this is not validated research that I can tell (eg this is not the result of a peer-reviewed journal paper); I do recognize the situation around that might be a bit tricky but I do want to make sure we're okay with that fact before posting. --Masem (t) 05:46, 26 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Support. There is no question as to the notability of this event. The key article is well-supported and well-written, if on the shorter side, but I feel there is still enough material in it for ITN. The supporting article has large uncited sections, but otherwise it is up to standards, and since it is only a supporting article, I think it is ready. Inatan (talk) 10:57, 26 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
@Pawnkingthree and Sca: There's no precise number of !votes that must be reached to determine consensus. Lack of opposition is also supporting. If you have any objection why the article should not be posted then explain it and once reasonable the article will be pulled. Posting is not irreversible.–Ammarpad (talk) 15:22, 26 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
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Oppose Almost 10 unsourced and mostly non-notable awards, films plus major unsourced sections as well as lot of weasel words. This article needs non trivial editing or complete stubbing –Ammarpad (talk) 15:16, 25 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Who? This RD nonsense where we post everyone with an article should at least require a field designating why the subject is notable. If I have to readthe article to find out why anyone should GAS, I suspect the item does not need posting. Meanwhile, names like UKL remain unposted based on technicalities? Cheese and Fooking Crackers! (The ones from Foo King, China, that is). μηδείς (talk) 04:35, 26 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
But, in all seriousness, if you really believe this to be "RD nonsense" then please feel free to do something about it. We had extensive trials, an RFC etc, which ended clearly on the side of the currently implemented consensus, but consensus can change, so you are welcome to instigate that change. I happen to think we're posting a vastly wider diversity of individuals than we ever would, we're being much more reactive than ever, and most of those featured on RD genuinely are recently deceased, unlike the main news items which are often very stale indeed. The Rambling Man (talk) 16:39, 26 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
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This vote is pointless. We already know he's notable enough. We already know it won't be posted until it's of sufficient quality. So what, exactly, are you supporting? The Rambling Man (talk) 21:16, 24 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Conditional support after sourcing issues are resolved - paging Ceoil for cleanup. There are two ways of fronting a band - the way everyone else does which is sing in the right places and join in with the music, and then there's the Mark E Smith way, which is to ignore the band and shout incoherently over the top of them (optionally turning off their amps if you can't hear yourself). Unique. Ritchie333(talk)(cont)21:17, 24 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Comment - Once the referencing is fixed, I would argue for a blurb. Considering the Fall's prolificness and influence on rock music as a whole, post-punk especially, I think this is noteworthy enough for a mention at the top. GrossesWasser (talk) 21:44, 24 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Weak support for blurb once the quality is fixed up. Technically he was still touring, so this is a rather unusual death, but I also see that they knew he was in bad health since at least August, so it was a matter of when, not if. Still he appeared active in music recording up to this point. --Masem (t) 22:33, 24 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Support RD only Didn't see any glaring citation omissions. The notability isn't there for a blurb--he's a notable figure in post-punk, but we're talking about a sub-genre within a sub-genre within a sub-genre. Teemu08 (talk) 00:08, 25 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose blurb Newton said he saw further by standing on the shoulders of giants. Blurbs are for the Newtons of the world; the giants get RDs. GCG (talk) 03:25, 25 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Support RD, oppose blurb. FWIW I'm a fan - I have his recordings and saw him perform - but he was very much a cult figure, simply not of the global cultural significance required for a blurb. Ghmyrtle (talk) 07:39, 25 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Posted to RD for the time being, the discussion about a possible blurb can continue. IMO whilst MES was a hugely influential figure in his area, that wasn't an area with a huge demographic. Black Kite (talk)13:57, 25 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
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Nominator's comments: United States gymnastics doctor who abused many gymnasts, including numerous Olympic gymnasts. This has been a pretty highly followed case that has now (unless an appeal happens) come to an end. Andise1 (talk) 19:22, 24 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose I'm afraid this kind of court case is becoming commonplace and so it's not remarkable or particularly newsworthy above all the others, see United Kingdom football sexual abuse scandal which is ongoing and features coaches who abused children and youth players for decades. I don't see this case as being any more notable than all the ongoing cases. The Rambling Man (talk) 19:26, 24 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Support This seems to have gathered much more media attention than the football scandal, probably because it involves gold-medal winning athletes such as Aly Raisman and Simone Biles, whereas the footballers involved are relatively obscure players. Also notable for the extraordinary 7 day sentencing hearing with testimony from over 150 gymnasts. I would bold USA Gymnastics sex abuse scandal rather than Nassar though.--Pawnkingthree (talk) 19:34, 24 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
No, a point of correction, the footballers in general haven't been named. They could be anyone. We haven't had the Hollywood Court Case High Profile Televised Marathon that we've seen here, but the cases are pretty much identical. Just because one features the US gymnast team, it doesn't make it more or less significant than the kids who were abused in the UK, to whit: the number of affected clubs had grown to 331, with 285 identified suspects and 784 alleged victims, arising from 2,028 referrals.The Rambling Man (talk) 19:37, 24 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Weak Support Given the rash of sexual misconduct allegations from mid-2017 onwards, TRM is absolutely right that we're likely going to have a number of stories in the next several years along the same lines, and definitely not all of them should be posted. This one predates those, and had a bit wider attention already due to being an Olympic-based issue. We definitely need to be wary about these cases going forward, but I think this one is sufficiently high-level (particularly with the harsh sentence) to qualify. --Masem (t) 19:42, 24 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
No, the sexual abuse that went on at high profile British clubs took place from the 1970s onwards, so that by far pre-dates this story. Courcelles, we don't know the identities of those who are involved in these British cases, they are protected unless they reveal themselves, but the fact that before Christmas, more than 784 alleged victims were noted means that we have a serious case. Getting "huge coverage" just like the government shutdown. Don't forget this is one legal case about one individual. Just because it happened in an American court, it doesn't make it more notable than all the cases that are going through the British courts. The Rambling Man (talk) 20:37, 24 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
It involved the high profile Olympic sports. It is not quite as significant as the Russian doping situation (which had many more people involved obviously), but we're still talking extremely high profile incident over some number of years. --Masem (t) 20:45, 24 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Masem, it's odd to hear you arguing like this. I've already told you that we don't know the identities of those involved in most cases in the UK scandal, and the many accused. This case, it's one criminal, and a bunch of high profile people, that's it. Will we need to blurb every such case from now on, I guess I already know the answer to that if the accused/guilty is American. The Rambling Man (talk) 21:00, 24 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Support The (nearly) definitive end of a notable story. Most of these cases don't involve such high-profile victims, which, in my mind, does increase the notability for ITN of the event. Courcelles (talk) 20:17, 24 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
To TRM, I'd be fine posting the British abuse scandal if it had a high-profile "finishing" moment like this one does. I suspect it'll be a while before that one concludes, and doubt it will conclude in such "clean" fashion, with a single act. Courcelles (talk) 21:29, 24 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, I get that, but it seems odd to glorify/vilify one criminal whose acts are similiar, if not the same, to those who are standing trial around the world in their hundreds. This is a little like us reading OK!, or the god-forsaken Daily Mail. From an encyclopedic perspective and a historical note, this is just another pervert being caught. We're seeing cases like this daily, and yes this is a little more titivating than some, gymnasts testifying against a pervert, but it's fundamentally the same concept. I'm not sure why this one individual is any more important than any other criminal who has committed crimes, like John Worboys, soon to be released from prison yet having apparently raped/assaulted more than 100 individuals in his taxi, but only convicted for a handful. Is the whole sensationalism based around the US female gymnast team? Is that the kicker? The Rambling Man (talk) 21:36, 24 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I wouldn't call it "sensationalism", but, yes. When you get down to it, this is all about the notability and number of the victims that separates it from run-of-the-mill child molestation cases. That's why this is getting so much coverage. Courcelles (talk) 22:05, 24 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Support - Like it or not this has been covered by media both nationally and internationally. Article seems ready for posting and includes very notable victims. BabbaQ (talk) 20:45, 24 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose A few years ago I think I would have supported this. However it seems to me that consensus on ITN has been shifting away from crime stories over the last couple of years. Very few seem to be getting posted. To be honest I can't remember the last time one made it. Also TRM has a fair point. While this is certainly a shocking crime and it is getting a great deal of attention, that describes most crime stories/events that get nominated here. What makes this one different? Why is this more important than the British football sex scandal or the death sentence handed down to the surviving Boston bomber? In short I am opposing for the sake of some level of consistency here. -Ad Orientem (talk) 20:51, 24 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
But is that not a matter of Other stuff exists. It is irrelevant what happens with other articles or subject, we evaluate each individually.BabbaQ (talk) 20:54, 24 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, there is OTHERSTUFF. But when other stuff is so consistent in its application then we call it "precedent" or in wiki-speak, "consensus." To be sure consensus is not without exceptions. But I think in this case we are talking about something that contradicts established precedent here and that brings me back to my question. Why is this different when we have been routinely turning down crime story nominations? What is the justification for the exception here? -Ad Orientem (talk) 21:00, 24 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Weak support per MAINEiac4434. I don't like it, but fact is, if I put in "Larry" into Google every one of the first page's result is on this case. Banedon (talk) 22:43, 24 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Support A top story in the Western press and significant to the sport. Bit like the controversy surrounding British cycling, this event hits the leading team in the world. I remember when we posted the controversy surrounding the British male child sex abuse scandal in football/soccer a year ago. Back then it was mere allegations in the press, yet for some reason we argue here that more than 150+ instances of American female child sex abuse is not important enough to post - especially when this is an actual legal conviction? Fuebaey (talk) 00:15, 25 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Posted Consensus is that the scale and level of abuse warrants posting, and this does not preclude or set precedent to post similar stories, be they earlier or wider in impact. Stephen00:35, 25 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Pull well sourced? So is cabbage. This is a single person of absolutely no public import. No one will know his name tomorrow, no one knew his name yesterday. We should really be posting quality like Dorothy Malone. not righting miniscule wrongs like a pedophile employed as a pedophile in the various senses of that word. μηδείς (talk) 04:30, 26 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
It's not Lassar that has been posted but the Gymnastics sex abuse case. With several very notable victims such ss athletes who are amongst the top in their field.BabbaQ (talk) 18:12, 26 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The US Olympic Committee has given an ultimatum to USA Gymnastics for their entire board to resign or be decertified as the governing body of gymnastics in the US over this scandal. [9] This is a big deal. 331dot (talk) 18:17, 26 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not saying it's not a big deal (it is), just that the vast majority of the planet would not have a clue who Larry Nassar was, which was the statement. Black Kite (talk)18:20, 26 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Support - Overall, I think the scale of the crimes committed, the fact that it is receiving such extensive media coverage throughout the world, the unusual (albeit well-deserved) prison sentence, and the high profiles of some of the victims (e.g. at least two Olympic gold medalists) tips this story over the edge for me as being notable enough to be featured on the main page. Kurtis(talk)22:44, 26 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
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Nominator's comments: The eruption has displaced over 40,000. The last time the volcano caused an Alert Level 4 was in 2010. Inatan (talk) 11:53, 24 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Note that the picture I have placed here is probably not good enough for ITN. It is the only good picture I could find on Commons of the event. Inatan (talk) 12:02, 24 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Support and noting that this should be ongoing as nominated (though it seems fairly late, given that it started since January 13). Its intensity kept increasing since then. But this may not be good candidate for ITN. –Ammarpad (talk) 12:11, 24 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Weak support for ongoing. Article is well sourced and comprehensive, but writing quality is dreadful. The amount of proseline writing is making my eye twitch... --Jayron3213:26, 24 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I just looked at this and 100% agree this cannot be posted in this state, regardless of how ITN-appropriate this is. This not only goes for the current activity but the past events as well. --Masem (t) 16:01, 24 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with this observation, plus there are quite a few unsupported statements, which I have tagged. I worked a little on the prose. The article is seeing about as much support as an ongoing event of this scale typically does (some, but not enough), and if that keeps up, it looks like I might have to take the necessary steps to bring it up to standards. Inatan (talk) 19:32, 24 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Not trying to be a jerk, but you keep posting votes that contradict your comment. If the quality is not to your standards, you shouldn't vote support. GCG (talk) 15:37, 24 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
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A double car bombing in Benghazi, Libya, kills at least 33 people and wounds "dozens" of others. The victims include both military personnel and civilians, according to local officials. (Reuters)
The nominations for the upcoming Academy Awards are announced. Among the films nominated as the best of 2017 in film, The Shape of Water leads with thirteen nominations, with Dunkirk following behind with eight nominations. (CNN)
The 11 remaining countries aiming to create the Trans-Pacific Partnership after the United States' withdrawal announce that they will sign an agreement in Chile this March. (Reuters)
The National Constituent Assembly approved a decree that calls for presidential elections before April 30. Incumbent Nicolás Maduro says he will compete for re-election. (Business Insider)
The organizers of the GoogleLunarX Prize announce that the $20 million grand prize for a commercial lunar lander will expire on 31 March 2018 without a winner because none of its five finalist teams would be able to launch a mission before the deadline. (Space News)
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Comment I don't know exactly how these things work, but what has actually happened here? The first line of the article says that it was declared extinct in 2011; what has actually changed this week? ‑ Iridescent23:33, 26 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The 2011 declaration was an informal conclusion from a government study but it did not alter the legal status of the cougar. This is the formal "they are history" declaration. -Ad Orientem (talk) 23:38, 26 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Comment I'd say that this is a significant enough story to post, but the article needs a good bit of work. Not only are there uncited sections, but it is incoherent to the point of making it difficult for the reader to understand what it's saying. What it really needs is to be rewritten with a couple of sourcing giving an overview of the topic, but in the absence of those, at least an attempt to pull together the various threads in it. Vanamonde (talk) 12:24, 27 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
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Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
Thanks for that. Currently oppose on article quality; it is too stubby for useful information. If expanded to a reasonable size and depth of coverage of his life and work, with proper sourcing, that would be fine. --Jayron3218:47, 23 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
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Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
Oppose primarily due to sourcing, secondarily due to length and depth. If we ignore the list of works, the actual prose is basically stub-level. Even with the list of works, it is mostly unreferenced, and the tiny amount of actual writing on his life is also substandard with regards to sourcing. It would need to be expanded with more prose and fully referenced to be main page ready. --Jayron3218:50, 23 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
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Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
Nominator's comments: South African musician. Several paragraphs unreferenced. Article would need need a lot of referencing work before posting. LukeSurltc16:02, 23 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Both articles updated Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
Nominator's comments: The subject's article needs work but the article about the poster is FA quality. The item gets good coverage by the BBC and NYT and so merits attention. Andrew D. (talk) 14:07, 23 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Comment. I agree with LukeSurl that the article on the poster isn't at issue because this probably won't be posted as a blurb as this person does not meet the criteria listed at WP:ITNRD(not a world transforming figure, her death is not the story but the poster). Her article, as indicated by the nominator, does need work as only the date of death has been added to it. 331dot (talk) 14:20, 23 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Comment There is nothing about this person's life that could not adequately be summarized in the We Can Do It! article. She should just be a redirect to there.--Pawnkingthree (talk) 14:22, 23 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose stub bio just created today, and most, if not all of which can be covered in the "We Can Do It!" article. That FA even states Doyle's notion that the photograph inspired the poster cannot be proved or disproved, so first Doyle and then Parker cannot be confirmed as the model for "We Can Do It!" so even the proposed blurb is false if the article is to be believed. The Rambling Man (talk) 14:26, 23 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose the RD of the bio article per WP:BLP1E (eg she should be merged into the We Can Do It article), but on that principle, willing to Support an RD for her using the poster article (eg piped link) as a exceptional case for RD. The poster article is in good shape for such posting. --Masem (t) 14:30, 23 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose Same argument as Masem, except given the circumstantial connection (the photo may be Fraley, but the photo was never confirmed as the source, it may well have been a composite), I thinks this falls short of the exceptional case he advocates. GCG (talk) 16:10, 23 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
It still falls under BLP1E issues - yes, her life beyond the photo for the poster has been documented, but that's non-notable facets relative to her role w.r.t. the poster. --Masem (t) 14:39, 23 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
And it still fails the Parker cannot be confirmed as the model for "We Can Do It!" original point that she might not even have been the model in question. The Rambling Man (talk) 14:46, 23 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
In this case, it seems that the RSes acknowledge she may not be 100% confirmed as the one, but they're treating her as if she is. That's not our fault if they end up being wrong. --Masem (t) 15:08, 23 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
As long as our article states that "she is believed to be the inspiration for the posters by scholars", or something to that line, we are being 100% truthful; we don't claim she is but that sources believe she is. --Masem (t) 16:11, 23 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The Naomi Parker article exists, and, after a little work, is adequate to post (the NYT obituary is a very good source). The RD procedures are clear. Unless someone intends to take this to AfD, we should post now. --LukeSurltc15:12, 23 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Really? With three sources? When I nominated Tyler Hilinski last week, people had similar concerns about notability and it wasn't posted. And nobody has bothered to nominate it for deletion. How about some consistency here? I say oppose. – Muboshgu (talk) 15:19, 23 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
From the template: "any individual human … with a standalone Wikipedia article (Naomi Parker) whose recent death is in the news (obituary in the NYT) is presumed to be important enough to post." I don't know what happened with Hilinski, I wasn't involved with that nomination. But here we have an article on a recently deceased person with no tags or flagged sourcing issues (there are only three sources, but the NYT obituary is very extensive and could support a start-class article by itself). If you don't think this person is notable, nominate the article for deletion. Otherwise this is a RD item. --LukeSurltc15:31, 23 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The article did not exist until today, so the normal RD requirement is not satisfied (RD presumes that a standalone article already existed). We get to consider that in this evaluation. --Masem (t) 15:26, 23 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Can you point me to where that information has been written down, so can learn more about it? I have, until now, never seen such a stipulation. --Jayron3216:04, 23 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Generally, that's going to extend from WP:BLP1E - if the person is only notable for one event (including if that is their death), then we shouldn't have a standalone article. The way I read the RFC on the RD aspect, is that we assume that the existing standalone prior to death justifies the notability for posting to avoid the BLP1E aspect around death, but that's not a hard-coded result of the RFC. However, I am going to start a discussion at the WT:ITN page about RDs on newly created articles to assure there's consensus for that. --Masem (t) 16:09, 23 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. Didn't we use to have a rule that the article had to exist prior to the death to qualify for RD? What happened to that? Anyway this person seems to fail WP:BLP1E and their sole claim to fame is based on dubious supposition, so the biography article may not survive very long anyway. I also oppose using the poster article as an alternative target, as that defeats the point in highlighting a recent death. Modest Geniustalk17:02, 23 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
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Article updated Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
It’s very late at night here and I am crashing from an adrenaline high after fleeing my house lest it be destroyed by a tsunami, so excuse me for not doing all the paperwork, but we just had a massive earthquake here in southcentral Alaska, enough that it is being reported in US national news and BBC world service. Also it was scary as hell. that is all. Beeblebrox (talk) 11:18, 23 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
7.9 earthquakes should qualify automatically as a topic; unless there's a quality issue, there's no way that this should not be featured. It's the lead story in my local newspaper here in Virginia, even though we're 4000 miles away, and its lead stories are almost always on local or state events. Nyttend (talk) 13:21, 23 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Was apparently not "violent earthquake" and I believe the magnitude of the earthquake doesn't always mean it is significant, because it depends on location and depth.. Galobtter (pingó mió) 13:33, 23 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Weak support for now. News coverage is evident and obvious, but the article itself is a bit light as yet, perhaps because we still don't have good information. Would like to see article expanded with more information on damage and effects. But its bare minimum to go up for me on a quality level. --Jayron3213:50, 23 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Wait for more details. So far it doesn't seem to have caused any damage or deaths, just a lot of alarm, which wouldn't be ITN-worthy. However it may well have impacts that haven't been reported yet. We won't be able to assess significance until more information becomes available. Modest Geniustalk14:10, 23 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose we should only consider earthquakes (and other such natural disasters) based on their actual impact and right now, I'm not seeing anything besides an evacuation of some frightened people. Naturally if things change, we can re-visit. Having said that, they're not giving any further advisories, so I consider the matter effectively closed. The Rambling Man (talk) 14:17, 23 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Weak oppose 8.0 Mag quakes are nothing to sneeze at, so there's a good reason to post, but its also the case that I'm not seeing any reports of significant damage, the tsunami warning is lifted, etc. "Non"-disasters or those with few or no casualties tend to not be ITN material. --Masem (t) 14:33, 23 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I have to admit this is seeming like a non-event for those who didn’t actually experience it. It’s not something I’ll forget anytime soon, my house shaking for what felt like at least a minute and then having to take my pets and my wife and just leave home, not knowing if I’d ever see it again, but luckily no significant tsunami waves occured, and I’ve not heard of any serious damage or deaths. Beeblebrox (talk) 21:38, 23 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
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Mayon erupts at 12:43 p.m. (PST). The eight-minute phreatomagmatic eruption was a dense, five-kilometer tall column of volcanic ash, followed by two explosion-type earthquakes. Fountains of intense but sporadic lava, which lasted between three to 30 minutes, began at 9:37 p.m. (GMA News Online)(PHIVOLCS bulletin)
An explosion on an oil rig in the U.S. state of Oklahoma leaves one injured and five people reported missing. (CBC)
The United States Senate reaches an agreement to reopen federal agencies through to February 8. A bill is working its way through the legislative process. The first Senate vote was 81–18. (AP).
Three members of the USA Gymnastics Board of Directors resign amid criticism over their handling of sexual abuse allegations against Larry Nassar. (NBC News)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
Comment I think we should at least consider a blurb in this case. NYT calls her "immensely popular"; Harold Bloom has a lot of praise, and included one of her works in The Western Canon (a list which, according to him, significantly influenced western culture); The Left Hand of Darkness is among the most-studied works of literature around; she's received the "Medal for Distinguished Contribution to American Letters"; she had six Nebula Awards (including four for best novel, more than anyone else) and five Hugo Awards. Not as much impact as Mandela or Bowie, but more than Carrie Fisher. I'm a fan of her work, but I think I would support even otherwise. Vanamonde (talk) 04:41, 24 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Unfortunately, the death is not causing any major waves as we have seen for what we'd expect for the blurb. We knew she was elderly, so the death wasn't really surprising (Whereas Fisher's death was very surprising though I don't agree that that should have been a blurb either). --Masem (t) 04:55, 24 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Well, it's not leading to candlelight vigils in the street, but her obituary is on the homepage of both NYT and the BBC as I write this. Vanamonde (talk) 05:41, 24 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose blurb. Simply of insufficient global significance. Essentially a genre writer, and her death at 88 has not been headline news in most parts of the world. Responding to Vanamonde93, she is much less well known globally than Carrie Fisher, and her death is much less surprising. No problem with RD though. Ghmyrtle (talk) 09:42, 24 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
@Ghmyrtle: Fair enough, but I'd point out that "well-known" is not synonymous with "significant"; Daniel Craig is probably far better known worldwide than Martin Scorsese, but the latter is indubitably more significant. Vanamonde (talk) 09:50, 24 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose blurb I think we need to fully "Godwin" Fisher from RD blurb debates. The whole point of CF as rhetorical argument is that she probably didn't qualify, but consensus gets to decide these things. Using her as precedent (which the rules advise against anyway) is ludicrous. GCG (talk) 13:43, 24 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Support Blurb Widely regarded as top woman writer in a male-dominated field, comparable in influence to Heinlein and Herbert, Earthsea trilogy and sequelae, The Lathe of Heaven and Left Hand of Darkness all widely disparate yet highly literary and award-winning classics. Not the normal "who's that?!?!?" type we get on the ticker nowadays. Importance goes far beyond pulp-fiction; comparable in skill and depth of themes to Tolkien and Lessing. μηδείς (talk) 14:56, 24 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
No, she's not a sainted political prisoner who healed a nation on the brink of civil war without reprisals and dictatorship. But Bowie? Certainly she meets that standard. μηδείς (talk) 15:00, 24 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Keep in mind, people like Bowie, Prince, and Robin Williams, while not the impact of Mandela or Thatcher, died unexpectedly; here, she was already in her late 80s, so the death is not unexpected. --Masem (t) 15:12, 24 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
IMO, when we hold up the "in their field" model, we have to use the most generally defined field (That is, scientist not physicist, musician not drummer). One could make the argument that Bowie was the most (or among the most) noteworthy living musicians at time of death. Thatcher, Mandela, even Kohl, the most noteworthy statesmen. If you asked me last week to name the most noteworthy living writers, I could talk for hours and not mention Le Guin. GCG (talk) 15:26, 24 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose blurb neither the manner of her death, nor the reactions to it, merit additional commentary. Since we have nothing more to say than "she died", RD is sufficient. --Jayron3215:02, 24 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Soft oppose blurb she's a literary giant, however I'm not seeing the kind of reaction like we saw with Prince, Bowie, et. al. This is "soft" however due to Vanamonde93's point about her obituary being front-page news for major outlets. Did we have a blurb for Harper Lee? I can't remember. MAINEiac4434 (talk) 20:26, 24 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Perhaps. But the slander was always that Harper Lee was Truman Capote's meatpuppet. And the "let's get this carp out before she dies publication" of her "second novel" seems to have tainted her reputation in many and various degrees. Le Guin's reputation is unsullied in any such way.
Our paying attention to public mention rather than actual merit is an effing embarrassment, not a virtue. If public attention mattered, all we would do is post the deaths of Glee and Fast and Furious stars. I still remember Le Guin's name. I will til I senesce. Do you remember the Glee or the F&F "stars'" names? Did . Not. Think. So.μηδείς (talk) 04:19, 26 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
I have taken it upon myself to unclose this discussion. Last I heard, I do not believe The Rambling Man (who closed it) is a current Wikipedia admin, so his word is not Wikipedia law in this.
It has been specified above that significance is measured within one's broadly-defined field. Le Guin's field is speculative fiction, but more broadly, it is English-language literature. The usual measure of significance in these fields is twofold: (1) is it considered canon? (2) is it still in print / how long has it been in print? In both the broadly-defined and narrow fields, her work is considered canon -- and she was continuing to produce canon-level literature right up to the year of her death. At the same time, many of her novels have never gone out of print since their first publication, to the point that you can still find them on the shelves in many brick-and-mortar bookstores. A high level of significance is thus established by two objective and somewhat independent measures, academic assessment and the marketplace.
It has also been brought up that obituaries constantly come and go on the front page of world newspapers. This is as true for Le Guin as it has been for Carrie Fisher, Isaac Asimov, Albert Einstein, David Bowie, and Mother Teresa; and will eventually be true for the likes of Stephen Hawking and Jimmy Wales. The transient nature of obits can thus be used to grind any personal axe one wishes.
I would thus suggest that any lack of personal familiarity, here, and equally (given that there does exist high newspaper mention) personal assessment of the relative importance of those mentions, should be trumped by the opinions of experts in those fields.
Based on the assessment above, for whatever it is worth at this point, my personal opinion is that Ursula Le Guin's stature within her field supports a blurb, on the level of Asimov or Heinlein. - Tenebris (won't add "Illegitimum non carborundum", since this place always operates on good faith!) 66.11.171.90 (talk) 16:24, 28 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Article updated Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
Weak oppose for now. Still some referencing gaps in the filmography section. If those were fixed, I'd be fine with posting this. --Jayron3218:58, 23 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
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Oppose for now pending the sourcing concerns noted below by Masem. A valid, reliable, independent, third party source for the death is crucial here. I made a good faith effort using Google and Google News and found bubkis myself. Consider this opposition null if the sourcing is fixed, and my former support vote reinstated when that happens. --Jayron3219:14, 22 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The template was very malformed when originally posted (I did some fixing). I'm not sure the poster intends to make a blurb submission, or whether this is simply what would normally be in the nomination comment. Regardless, RD is clear here and the article seems OK to post as such. --LukeSurltc18:26, 22 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Comment Not trying to be a jerk here, but the only source for the death is from Facebook (the other links are older, establishing notability). We generally expect death news to come from the news, not deaths that are just reported. However, I'm not aware of any previous case where we have a person/living thing that was notable before death, but their only death news came from a personal website/social media. --Masem (t) 19:09, 22 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Let me stress again I'm not trying to be a jerk here: I don't know since with the new RD if it is critical that the death be "in the news" when it is clear the notability of the being was established beforehand. I open up the question if this approach breaks RD/ITN or not (And absolutely nothing against this because it is a dog rather than a person; that past RFC already fixed that in place). --Masem (t) 20:45, 22 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I suggested we change the template from "whose recent death is in the news" to "whose recent death is reliably sourced." WP:ITNRD uses "reliably sourced," and I think "in the news" adds some ambiguity about the level of reporting required. GCG (talk) 21:44, 22 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with GCG's proposal. However, in this specific case it's worth considering if Facebook counts as a reliable source in this matter. As per Wikipedia:External_links/Perennial_websites#Facebook,_MySpace, FB can be a reliable source "sometimes". Specifically "the official page of a subject may be used as a self-published, primary source, but only if it can be authenticated as belonging to the subject." Regarding authentication, this page is not "verified" for Lucca (presumably as FB would not authorise a non-human). More generally, by definition even a human individual cannot write a primary source reporting their death. --LukeSurltc22:39, 22 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I spent much time looking for any news source on his death. And I only posted it when I found the Facebook page, which well antedates the death and reports the death in convincing detail. I quoted it. Given the pictures, the videos, and the text, this is certainly Lucca's facebook page. It has sufficient earmarks of reliability that it could be used. I only became aware of the death become another wikipedia editor put it into our article, and then I added sources and went on a quest. Finding a newspaper or mainstream media on the death of this remarkable dog may be a vain search. But if you choose not to run it, it is your and Wikipedia's loss. 7&6=thirteen (☎)22:59, 22 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose Unless there's independent, reliable source that confirmed the death. Main page worthy article shouldn't rely on generally unreliable source.–Ammarpad (talk) 09:03, 23 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
This sort of proves my point about the ambiguity of "in the news" vs. "reliable sources." No knock intended to 331. GCG (talk) 12:56, 23 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. If no third party sources have bothered to report the death, that brings into question the notability of the animal at all, let alone the propriety of us announcing it on the MP. A Facebook post is not a reliable third-party source. Frankly the idea of automatically posting an RD for every animal with an article is looking increasingly ridiculous. Modest Geniustalk13:21, 23 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose Facebook is not a reliable source for his death. The article contradicts itself currently by having a death date in the infobox, but the article implies he's alive. Joseph2302 (talk)16:31, 23 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose/Wait. Death reports like this sometimes take a couple days to appear based on a number of factors (location, when/if the family talks to the media, the state of the news cycle, etc.). For now I oppose due to the lack of sourcing, but reliable sourcing may appear and change things. ZettaComposer (talk) 17:47, 23 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Nominator's comments: This is a formalised proposal that we remove the blurb for the government shutdown, and move it to ongoing. This suggestion is purely because of the nature of the nomination. The shutdown, as it persists, will drag on, as too will its impacts. Ongoing is currently vacated, so there is no opportunity cost in placing in there. The article has and will continue inevitably to receive updates, fulfilling the criteria for an ongoing placement. There is a consensus, however contentious, for this item to be listed at ITN. However, I feel that it is better suited to an ongoing listing at the moment given its nature, and am hence creating this nom, per Vanamonde's suggestion in posting its predecessor as a blurb, to gauge interest in moving the item to ongoing now. Stormy clouds (talk) 15:30, 22 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Procedural note I'm neutral on this, but if I were to be the closing admin here, I would see a "support" to mean "remove blurb, move to ongoing" and an "oppose" to mean "keep blurb". If we want to remove this altogether, that will have to be discussed separately (or, per IAR, could be decided here but only if folks are explicit about it). Vanamonde (talk) 15:39, 22 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Apologies for not phrasing correctly. As nominator, this would be my reading of events too - support for removal of blurb and transition to ongoing, oppose for maintenance of blurb as is. Stormy clouds (talk) 15:42, 22 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Falling slightly between Vanamonde's two options, I would suggest pushing this to ongoing iff the shutdown is still in effect when the blurb "falls off" the bottom of the template. --LukeSurltc15:57, 22 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Wait until the blurb is going to fall off the list. (eg about 2-3 days). We know that Congress is going to be trying to do something, as I write, we're in an hour before a next major vote, and if the shutdown is rendered null, then making this as ongoing is unnecessary. Additionally, whether ongoing is necessary depends what actually happens. If there is clearly attempts to resolve and it's all about negotations and the like with the implications the shutdown will be resolved soon, then ongoing seems unnecessary. If both sides walk away and let the shutdown linger, that's ongoing-worthy. But I can't make that distinction now, so this ongoing suggestion is too soon. --Masem (t) 16:02, 22 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
And as I'm watching, CNN reports that the Dems say they have reached a deal and Senate is voting now to pass the bill, rendering all this moot. --Masem (t) 17:38, 22 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
And now CNN reports the vote has cleared the Senate. Obviously, let's make sure it gets signed and passed before closing this down. --Masem (t) 17:54, 22 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Comment Isn't the blurb misleading? I thought the shutdown was due to the Democratic refusal to build the wall in exchange for DACA?Zigzig20s (talk) 17:31, 22 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The blurb is not misleading, and putting it on Democrats is a POV violation of oversimplification as there were Republicans voting against it as well. – Muboshgu (talk) 17:41, 22 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose/Wait. If this were to fall off the bottom while the shutdown was still happening, then it would be fine to move to an ongoing link. Otherwise, since it just went up a few hours ago, there's no need to move it of its own accord. It's on the main page, and I am unconcerned about whether the link appears as a blurb or ongoing. The blurb is sufficient unless and until it becomes a long-term shutdown. --Jayron3218:13, 22 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
We never put blurbs in ITN in the past tense. When the deal is made, the story is no longer of significance and will, I would imagine, be removed. Stormy clouds (talk) 21:35, 22 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose - I strictly oppose adding things that are no longer happening to the ongoing section. I'll also note, that such an oppose does not mean in any way that I support any other blurb's existence. This poll is for adding the nominated article to the ongoing section, that is all. — Coffee // have a ☕️ // beans // 21:44, 22 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose clearly, per the BBC "The shutdown is over, but the immigration and budget battles rage on. Both sides will try to claim victory, with varying degrees of success." i.e. a political farce played out in public for a couple of days with next-to-no impact, certainly no long-term effects, and definitely not "ongoing" in any sense. It was always clear this was going to be resolved in next to no time, and while I respect the admin who posted the ITNC story, it's a shame it didn't wait another few hours when it was confirmed to be a non-story. The Rambling Man (talk) 21:53, 22 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
Six insurgents kill at least 18 people, including 4 Afghans and 14 foreigners, in a 13-hour gun battle. The Afghan Interior Ministry says that the siege ended when the last gunman was shot dead. NATO reports that "no foreign troops" died. The Taliban claim that they sent five suicide bombers armed with hand grenades and AK-47 assault rifles. The Afghan government blames the attack on the Pakistan-based Haqqani network. (CBS News), (AP via NBC News), (BBC)
Congolese security forces kill at least six protesters and fire tear gas in Kinshasa. 57 people are wounded and dozens of arrests are made in protests across the country, notably in Mbuji-Mayi, Goma, Lubumbashi and several other places. (Reuters)
The United States Senate schedules a vote for noon Monday to fund the government through February 8. Since the Senate did not reach a budget compromise late Sunday evening, hundreds of thousands of federal workers will face furloughs on Monday and many federal government offices will remain closed though some facilities, such as the Smithsonian Museums and the National Zoo, are scheduled to be open. (The Washington Post)(BBC)(Reuters)(The Hill)
The nominated event is listed on WP:ITN/R, so each occurrence is presumed to be important enough to post. Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article and update meet WP:ITNCRIT, not the significance.
Nominator's comments: For reasons I never understood, the first launch of a new rocket family is ITNR. Technically this was the first successful launch and we didn't cover the earlier failure, so I think it still qualifies. The Electron is very much towards the 'small and cheap' end of the market, but does have a significant technical advance in its 3D-printed electric-pumped engines. The article is rather lightweight at present, but there are plenty of sources covering the launch which could be used for expansion. Modest Geniustalk12:16, 22 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Support. Nice to have some science in the ITN box. Article is slim but meets minimum standards, and its worth appreciating that a lot of info is contained succinctly in the infobox. --LukeSurltc13:52, 22 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Support. The article on the rocket is good enough (for a science article) to be featured here. The supporting article on electric pump fed engines is good enough as a supporting article. Within the world of technology, the accomplishment is notable enough. Inatan (talk) 14:12, 22 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose copied from Wikipedia talk:In the news. Why is the rocket article featured? The innovation is small, not large, where the electical reference is just to the pump that pushes fuel into the engine. So its an improved pump, not an electrical or otherwise non-fuel-consuming engine. So why the hyped product? -Inowen (talk) 01:23, 24 January 2018 (UTC). Continued: It has the earmarks of British propaganda, as the company and even the name of the Rocket are British self-honorific. -Inowen.[reply]
I've made the formal quixotic suggestion that we remove Space Exploration from ITN/R. I support this story, believe such stories belong on ITN, and trust that the consensus will overwhelming support legit scientific progress. But ITN/R is meant to be a black/white process: there should be no debate about if an item "fits" an ITNR, and the Space category is ripe for generating debate. Please do pop in offer your opinion. GCG (talk) 02:45, 24 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Its clear that the policy is well intended but its application has to apply to meaningful innovations, not just incremental ones. It seemed that the inclusion made some people happy just because it was technical, but small technical innovations typically should not qualify. Its good to have electrical pumps I suppose because of a quantifiable improvement over combustion pumps but such isn't equivalent to putting electrical vehicles on the street or in your garage. -Inowen (talk) 06:13, 24 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Article updated Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
Tens of thousands of demonstrators protest in Bucharest and major cities against perceived corruption and changes to the judiciary. Romanians in diaspora stage protests in dozens of cities worldwide in solidarity with the anti-corruption movement in the country. (Associated Press)(Balkan Insight)
Hundreds of thousands protest in D.C., with thousands of protesters turning out in Los Angeles, Chicago, Philadelphia, and other cities throughout the United States and the world in cities such as Rome, Italy internationally, in support of women's rights. (The New York Times)(Politico)
Oppose - attacks in the region are so prevalent that this is not even the first one in the hotel. Also, there is no standalone article, such an article would fail an AfD, and the update amounts to a single line with barely any information. Stormy clouds (talk) 23:59, 20 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Also oppose this resurgence of the nomination. Does not pass the threshold of notability required for posting in my view, given that Kabul is an active war zone. Stormy clouds (talk) 19:13, 21 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
No one is claiming that there is. However, an attack in an active warzone will not be particularly newsworthy unless there are significant fatalities, purely by virtue of the fact that people die frequently in attacks in a warzone. Stormy clouds (talk) 18:16, 21 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Support - high-profile attack with deaths involving many nationalities. Worldwide news coverage. ITN should feature the attack article, not the hotel. -Zanhe (talk) 19:10, 21 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Comment okay, it's an attack in a "war zone", but it's a focused attack on a hotel where non-combatants would be staying. Apparently up to 18 have been killed. It's all over the news, the article is now "okay", so it's getting to the point where it's more difficult to argue against posting it. The "war zone" opposers will have to wake up when the next mass shooting happens in the US with just 10 deaths, say. We should summarily ignore all mass shootings in the US from now on until they raise the bar to record-breaking levels, or are in some way novel. The Rambling Man (talk) 22:04, 21 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
As one of those opposers, I can confirm that the frequency of mass shootings stateside has earned many opposes from me in the past, and will continue to do so in the future. Stormy clouds (talk) 22:27, 21 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I don't get the logic behind the argument that terrorist attacks in unstable countries are "not news", while we regularly post all kinds of sporting events from countries that are crazy about sports. Which is more unexpected and has more real life consequences? -Zanhe (talk) 03:37, 22 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Support Although the confirmed death toll is not record-breaking for Afghanistan (but substantial and rising nevertheless), this was targeted based on nationality, which is far less common than the typical, indiscriminate attacks. EternalNomad (talk) 03:33, 22 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Article updated Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
There is no need to mention why the subject is notable as this is irrelevant to the nomination. As per the note on every nom, the only point to be discussed is quality of the article (length, prose, copyediting, referencing etc). MurielMary (talk) 01:24, 21 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Support - article is mostly well referenced. The one unsourced sentence can be removed without much impact on completeness. (now fixed) -Zanhe (talk) 19:12, 21 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Article updated Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
Very Strong Support, change blurb to (as an example): Turkish military has launched military invasion against Syrian Democratic Forces in northern Syria, which opens a new front in the Syrian Civil War. This is probably the biggest development in the Syrian Civil War since 2015 Russian intervention, and will affect the middle-eastern politics for decades. I mean, just so that you understand, Turkey just officially started war against the SDF, which is not only the biggest faction in the syrian civil war after Assad, but SDF was also the world's main ally in the fight against ISIS. Niqabu (talk) 17:31, 20 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Support. I have been following the situation for some time now, and while it is not the first time the Republic of Turkey has bombed them, it would certainly be the first time a full-blown military operation has taken place during this war (see this map), so I would certainly support it, but I would wait to post it until we are absolutely sure about the situation (this could take several days). Inatan (talk) 21:30, 20 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Tentative support That military action has been taken is appropriate for ITN, but my concern is making sure how this is being taken (Yes, it is arguably an "act of war" but doesn't mean it is necessarily "war"). Obviously it's part of the overall Syrian civil war, but just would be good to have a clear understanding how the world is taking it. (eg the comments by Niqabu above are a bit over-the-top based on how I'm reading news articlea bout it). --Masem (t) 21:40, 20 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Not so much the blurb but the article. It does seem to be sufficiently neutral at the present, but the implications are not 100% clear. --Masem (t) 21:45, 20 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Well we're not here to debate the "implications" of the action, just to note that something newsworthy has occurred and to decide if our article covers it sufficiently. That seems apparent. We should stop dithering and post. The Rambling Man (talk) 21:55, 20 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Support Article looks fine (do link the current title), and it tops the news headlines. I'd prefer a blurb without US mention, since I thought the Afrin part of SDF didn't have much US military support. Narayanese (talk) 22:02, 20 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: There's no reason to mention the US in the blurb, given that it doesn't really back Afrin's YPG and there are no coalition forces there. Fitzcarmalan (talk) 08:33, 21 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
On the contrary, I think the fact that Turkish troops are attacking a "US-backed" force is an important component of this story and certainly one which will create more interest and be more informative to the readership. Gatoclass (talk) 11:40, 21 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I concur with Gatoclass. This is by far the most important part here, and its not analysis or specultion. Both the US and SDF officially confirm that US backs and arms SDF. And supports their operations with plains and special forces. And trains SDF. And has military bases on the SDF occupied territory. Niqabu (talk) 12:14, 21 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Comment I did see we posted the last shutdown in 2013 [10]. That said, there was a separate article for that shutdown, and I see no reason not to expect the same here. Yes, it doesn't make sense to create it until the shutdown is confirmed, but I fully expect that before I could support this. --Masem (t) 04:02, 20 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Abomination May shut down? This is an internal fiscal legislative matter that would never be published for any other country. It is also crystal balling, and treats "politics" (i.e., there are enough votes to pass a budget, except for the US "fillibuster") as if they were real things, and not power manoeuvres among non-productive (save for hot air) parasites living at public expense. Bring back the House of Hanover! μηδείς (talk) 04:13, 20 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Strong Oppose - Despite the fear mongering, this only affects things such as national parks, museums, etc. Anything of importance to conducting life continues to operate as usual. This affects nobody outside of America, and very few within America. - Floydianτ¢06:16, 20 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Not just national parks (which actually Trump wishes to continue) are effected. Moody's Analytics estimated that a shutdown of three to four weeks would cost the economy about $55 billion. Lost wages of Federal employees will amount to about $1 billion a week.[179] Goldman Sachs estimated that a three-week shutdown would reduce the gross domestic product of the United States by 0.9%.[180] According to the Los Angeles Times, a two-week shutdown would reduce GDP growth in the fourth quarter by 0.3 to 0.4 percentage points. By comparison, the GDP has grown by less than 2% in 2013.[181] Many programs are affected. Galobtter (pingó mió) 07:04, 20 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose Don't see the point of posting pointless political maneuvering of a country which in the end will not result in any extraordinary problems or changes in status quo.75.73.150.255 (talk) 10:20, 20 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Comment. I'm aware that we posted the last shutdown in 2013, but I wonder if we should be discussing posting this to Ongoing or only posting the end of the shutdown(depending on how long it goes). The longer it goes, the more damage it will do(being the weekend relatively little of the federal government will be open until Monday). 331dot (talk) 10:43, 20 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Ongoing seems reasonable as the article should be updated as the shutdown goes on; the end may also be more reasonable as only then will we know exactly how newsworthy it becomes. Galobtter (pingó mió) 10:46, 20 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose The term "government shutdown" is hyperbolic. In reality, as discussed above, only some government services deemed non-essential are affected. The government itself and other essential services do not shut down, as the term implies. So if this were to be posted (and I don't think it should be), a better blurb would be "Some non-essential United States federal government services shut down after the Senate fails to pass a temporary funding bill" Chrisclear (talk) 10:47, 20 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
My issue with the nomination is not with the term "government shutdown" per se, but rather the importance of this news item. That is, only some government services deemed non-essential are affected. Regarding the blurb, the phrase "Some non-essential United States federal government services shut down" is more accurate, and helps explains things better to non-Americans who are unfamiliar with the concept of US government "shutdowns" which do not involve the government shutting down, as the term implies. Readers shouldn't have to click on a link to find out that the government doesn't actually shut down during a "shutdown". Chrisclear (talk) 11:04, 20 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Some sources use the term "partial government shutdown"; perhaps we could use that here. "Non-essential" doesn't quite capture it, since the nuance is that the workers that are retained are the ones essential to preserving life and property, not the ones essential to actually having a functioning government. Antony–22 (talk⁄contribs) 20:00, 20 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Does ITN even post news anymore? This project is bollocks and its existence could be done away with. It seems like for five or six blurbs at a time, it is consistently a week behind. Anything that is ever legitimately in the news is never on the front page of Wikipedia, and obscure crap like a guy winning a darts contest stays on for ten days at a time. Fifth most popular website on the internet and you guys posture for content on the Main Page worse than the U.S. congress for a bill when all you have to do is just look at headlines. That being said it meets the merits of being on the front page it being, you know, news. Regards, — MoeEpsilon11:02, 20 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
@Moe Epsilon: ITN is not meant to be a news ticker or otherwise updated constantly, but is intended as a way to highlight quality articles about subjects that are in the news that people might be looking for. It also motivates the improvement of articles. ITN does not parrot the press but bases consensus on the merits of the event and quality of the article. If you wish to find or participate in generating current, breaking news, WikiNews is available. No one forces you to come to ITNC if you disagree with what we are about. If you feel ITN should be a news ticker or post subquality articles, you are free to propose that. 331dot (talk) 11:08, 20 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The point is, WP:NOTNEWS has been a staple of Wikipedia since inception for creating content and establishing what Wikipedia is and isn't. Despite this, some of the most discussed, heavily debated-about stuff on Wikipedia is what we should feature as 'news' for the Main Page. I don't want, nor should we be a roving ticker of news or try to be WikiNews. Nor, if you're going to attempt news, should we be producing piss-poor news that is actually not news. We already highlight quality articles with featured articles. If the point is attracting editors to newly-created or developing articles, then it doesn't do it's job because we never feature them in time for it being in the news (not to mention, they are usually protected from new editors editing them anyways). What is the point? All I see is endless debate about things a limited number of people care about being presented as 'news' when articles that are actually going to have an audience get attention regardless of whether we consider it newsworthy. We might as well replace "In the News" with "Ten Most Visited Articles Today" and there's your news. Regards, — MoeEpsilon11:46, 20 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
You are free to propose that though I think it's been tried and failed many times. Even merely renaming ITN to better reflect that it is not meant to have breaking, current news has been proposed and failed. "Actually going to have an audience" is relative and would preclude the possibility of users learning something about a new subject that they might not have been aware of. However, further debate about the meaning of ITN should take place on the talk page if you are interested in attempting to change what we are about. 331dot (talk) 11:52, 20 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose per Floydian amd ChrisClear. This doesn't even affect the majority of people in the USA, let alone anywhere else. Political posturing is not for ITN. Black Kite (talk)15:00, 20 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
This is my concern - this is a combination of the norm of partisan politics ("We won't pass the budget unless you also pass this") combined with the bitter resentment the press has against the current state of the Congress. I'm not dead certain on opposing this, but this is the type of news bias where we should remember that we are not a newspaper in general. Yes, there is a shutdown, but we should wait to see what the effects actually are until deeming it significant. --Masem (t) 16:01, 20 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose - We would consider something like he US defaulting on its debt/interest paybacks to the Federal Reserve and other bond holders to actually be significant. The shutdown of a few federal services in one nation for what, according to historical context, will only last up to a couple weeks, does not even compare and should not be considered to be worldwide important. If the shutdown lasts for more than a few weeks, and stories begin to arise of actual impacts from this, then I would reconsider this decision. Otherwise, it's letting our platform be used as free media for congressional members who are trying to make this seem like a big deal. — Coffee // have a ☕️ // beans // 16:44, 20 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Support and possibly add to Ongoing. Major event that will have lasting repercussions in America. (Note: I'm not American so no COI) – Nixinova ⟨T|C⟩ 17:12, 20 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
@Nixinova: It is not a COI for an American to comment on this discussion, nor to edit the article itself. Maybe if Donald Trump, Mitch McConnell, or Chuck Schumer themselves were editing, it would be a COI, but not Americans in general. It would be a systemic bias issue, but that still wouldn't prevent people from commenting here. 331dot (talk) 17:15, 20 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Wait until Monday. If the shutdown ends before the weekend is up, the effects will have been fairly trivial. If 800k workers are furloughed on Monday, it will become a very significant disruption. Antony–22 (talk⁄contribs) 20:04, 20 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Support blurb Ongoing may be a good idea if this continues on past the weekend. It's major news with major coverage and a postable article. – Muboshgu (talk) 20:24, 20 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose this seems to be a thing in the US, it happened not that long ago, and although it's marginally disruptive to a few Americans at the time, it doesn't seem to have any long term impact (hence why we're doing it all again five years later), other than scoring political points on a government that appears to have little or no control over itself and its country. It's a good example of how not to run a first-world country I suppose, but that alone shouldn't be sufficient reason to post. If it's all still clagged up in March, let's talk again. The Rambling Man (talk) 21:21, 20 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Just like gun massacres, just because they happen in the U.S. more often than they should doesn't mean we should stop posting them when they happen. – Muboshgu (talk) 02:15, 21 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, it does. It means precisely that, because it's less newsworthy if it happens more frequently. It adjusts the baseline of newsworthiness. And it's not the only point. This just happens from time to time and it's inconvenient, but until anyone can provide a reason as to why this has any long term effect other than a bunch of internal politics, it's simply not interesting. The Rambling Man (talk) 09:28, 21 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
TRM is correct here. These occasional "shutdowns" are window dressing. No one loses any wages or benefits, since all furloughed workers, etc., eventually get paid even though they stayed home. The only newsworthy event of the 2013 shutdown was that some people were fined for "trespass" when they used publicly accessible areas of national parks such as running trails. μηδείς (talk) 18:19, 21 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I know that sounds like a lot of dollar, but what is it in relation to national debt? Last time I looked it was $5.4 trillion, so a few billion is really a drop in the ocean. The Rambling Man (talk) 21:54, 21 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
And you are completely involved now, so stop forum shopping to get your POV posted. Your personal attacks are noted ("senseless comments" etc) and for a new admin, I'd suggest you just slow down a little and remember why I voted for you. The impact is objectively and literally inconsequential. Don't assault me, especially with your admin hat. The Rambling Man (talk) 22:14, 21 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not acting as an admin in this discussion. Your comments are senseless; I didn't say you are senseless. The impact of a shutdown may be inconsequential for you but it's a big deal over here. – Muboshgu (talk) 22:16, 21 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
There you go. My comments are not "senseless" and I'll ask you retract your multiple accusations. In what sense are they "senseless"? You are making personal attack after personal attack on me. The Rambling Man (talk) 22:18, 21 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Support ongoing, oppose blurb - this is the ideal item for filling the void at ongoing, though the effects are not profound enough yet for a blurb. Stormy clouds (talk) 23:58, 20 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Maybe try considering ITN criteria. Nobody said it's more noteworthy than the 2013 shutdown, and there is no rule here saying it has to be. It's at least equally noteworthy, and we posted that one. Your comments here make no sense. – Muboshgu (talk) 22:05, 21 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
What, my question that asks you what you're talking about? Did I really vote for you to be an admin? Are you really taking this course of communication? Wow! The Rambling Man (talk) 22:16, 21 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The question I replied to. "Why is it more noteworthy than the last time this bureaucratic action happened?" That question doesn't help this discussion. – Muboshgu (talk) 22:19, 21 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
When you retract and redact your accusations of my comments being "senseless" we can continue to communicate. In the meantime, Arbcom record for quickest desysop awaits. The Rambling Man (talk) 22:23, 21 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
@The Rambling Man: I would say it has the same noteworthiness with 2013 shutdown. And since it was in ITN last time, I don't see any problem why it can't this time. This is not hard to figure out. --Horus (talk) 05:24, 22 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
No it isn't. It's an artificial freeze on government business. No-one has gone bust, unless you accept the US national debt of 5 trillion dollars. This is just a symptom of that. The Rambling Man (talk) 21:56, 21 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Sure. The ITN criteria are twofold: that the "updated content" must be high-quality, and that the topic is "significant enough". Furthermore, the criteria tell us that "qualities in one area can make up for deficiencies in another". Therefore, if a topic is significant enough, the quality of the article is of decreased importance.This topic is clearly significant; the criteria tell us that an event must be "being covered, in an in-depth mannner, by news sources". This event is receiving substantial coverage in multiple news sources, such as the Times, the Journal, and the Post. So, it passes the criteria. Enterprisey (talk!) 01:19, 22 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Support Story is very clearly in the news, article is in fine shape with good updates. The argument against posting is that it happens frequently, but then this is the third occurrence in the past quarter century. GCG (talk) 00:41, 22 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Support – It's time we posted this, although blurb should be qualified with "partially" before "shuts down." As BBC notes, "essential services that protect 'life or human property' will continue, including national security, postal services, air traffic control, some medical services, disaster assistance, prisons, taxation and electricity generation." Sca (talk) 14:24, 22 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I'm still neutral, if not leaning against this, because the idea of a government shutdown is pretty much unique to the US [11], something that comes up year after year but most of the time avoided due to short-term spending bills (last year, those were signed in early Dec so that they didn't push the deadline), and the fact this is a story that is biased by it being a petty partisan squabble, overblown by politicians and the media alike. It's a manufactured situation for all purposes, and not the type of story ITN normally puts into play. But it does have potentially to be more impactful if this continues past this week, for example, so it might be better to wait until its resolve. --Masem (t) 14:41, 22 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
For reference, at this point the news that a deal was likely broke and discussion re-opened
Carillion going under is no longer on the front page of any news website either, while the shutdown being over still is. Start there. Regards, — MoeEpsilon19:52, 22 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
It will be over, that's clear. And this news item is exactly as predicted, all bluster, not impactful in any tangible way, just political posturing, and not very good posturing at that. Carillion going under will effect thousands of people for months and years to come. This political joke is already yesterday's news. The Rambling Man (talk) 20:07, 22 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
For something so life changing as "effecting thousands" for "years to come", the BBC and other British websites have zero coverage on the front page of their websites. Meanwhile, the shutdown is still mentioned in comparison. So which is old news? Regards, — MoeEpsilon20:30, 22 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
We're just moving on with Carillion, it's happened, just like this hyped up political silliness has happened and will now end with no long-term impact at all. Unlike Carillion. The Rambling Man (talk) 20:31, 22 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Is that how that works over there? "Thousands of lives are devastated, nothing can be done, let's not talk about it." Regards, — MoeEpsilon20:34, 22 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Well I guess so, although I don't know what "devasted" means. There's nothing much that can be done, our country isn't run via Twitter and threats, so I'm not sure what you'd expect us to do any differently. And for what it's worth, it's still all over our news, just not headlines. That's how news is supposed to work. (Clue in the name). The Rambling Man (talk) 20:38, 22 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Ah thanks for that, I've been awake too long. You're right, that is how it's supposed to work, which is exactly why the shutdown is news. Have a nice day. Regards, — MoeEpsilon20:41, 22 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Suggest that we amend to "…partially shuts down for three days…" once the temporary deal passes, but without bumping the item. Having the blurb up in its present form will remain technically correct, but could give the impression that the shutdown is still extant to readers, and it's worth adding three words to avoid being misleading. --LukeSurltc20:46, 22 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I have undone WaltCip's extension of the archive box with this edit. This story has markedly changed with the (impending) deal, and both TRM and I have proposed different reactions to this. It's questionable where these discussions should occur (here, the "ongoing" nomination above, WT:ITN, or WP:ERRORS) and I'd be happy to move my comment if mine is in the wrong place. However there are reasonable arguments for both pulling and amending the blurb and it is unnecessary to close off such discussions because they are written underneath a colored box. --LukeSurltc20:59, 22 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I think that, if the government does indeed reopen, it's best for an admin to simply update the blurb to say that, along the lines of "the government shut down for three days and reopened". – Muboshgu (talk) 21:11, 22 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Bickering with you is pointless and counterproductive. My mistake yesterday was forgetting that. I won't reply here again, so you can get the last word as you always insist upon receiving. – Muboshgu (talk) 21:41, 22 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Pull - This was clearly a non-impact story of political posturing, just as I and several others predicted. Also, these discussions last for up to 7 days when there isn't clear consensus. @Vanamonde93: should have known better than to close this before an actually non-controversial consensus or non-consensus was reached. I'm not pulling the blurb myself. But, this discussion is not over, nor should it be archived. So it no longer is. If more editors come by and ask for it to stay, then by all means let's close this thread at that point. But closing this only 2 days into such a controversial discussion is just not acceptable. — Coffee // have a ☕️ // beans // 21:38, 22 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion has since been re-opened in an attempt to restore some kind of sanity to this over-hyped classic Trump nonsense carnival. Feel free to strike the previous pull request which was made when this was inadvertently posted and the discussion soon after closed. If it makes you feel better. The Rambling Man (talk) 21:48, 22 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
There is no consensus whatsoever for "The US government reopens" to be listed as a blurb, and the current blurb is not inaccurate. Something has got to give here. Stormy clouds (talk) 21:58, 22 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Keep This was posted based on 2:1 consensus. No one thought it would last forever, so the ending of it does not change that consensus. I strongly urge any admin to not pull this without some original supporters flipping. GCG (talk) 22:15, 22 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
No, that's not a suitable reason to keep something which is actually no longer true anywhere near the main page. Nor is vote counting considered a reasonable approach. Nor should we have to wait for "original supporters" to "flip" anything. The Rambling Man (talk) 22:36, 22 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Keep why should this be pulled now that the impasse has resolved itself? That's like saying that if Turkey ceases its offensive we would pull the blurb, if someone decides to buy up Carillion's debt we would pull the blurb, etc. More likely we'd just modify those blurbs, which should also be the default here. Banedon (talk) 23:41, 22 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Looks like it's been pulled ... fair point, what I was going to say is that this is something that can be cancelled ... the examples you gave above still leave issues behind. Black Kite (talk)23:47, 22 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Keep bad pull. The story happened, it was in the news, as much as a bus fire, the attack in Afghanistan or some bloke throwing darts. There was no technical reason to pull. This amounts to WP:IDONTLIKEIT in the extreme. --CosmicAdventure (talk) 02:00, 23 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Re-post, was wrongly pulled per CosmicAdventure. I don't know what's wrong with saying, "The U.S. federal government entered a partial shutdown for three days after the Senate fails to pass a funding bill on time". The subject is still very much in the news, much more so than some of the other blurbs that are still standing. Erasing the blurb is the wrong way to go about this. Davey2116 (talk) 02:23, 23 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Article:2018 Blind Cricket World Cup (talk·history·tag) Blurb: India defeated Pakistan by 2 wickets to secure their 2nd Blind Cricket World Cup title. (Post) Alternative blurb: India defeated Pakistan by 2 wickets to secure their 2nd Blind Cricket World Cup title. Alternative blurb II: India defeated Pakistan by 2 wickets to secure their 2nd Blind Cricket World Cup title. News source(s):News18 Credits:
Comment. Typically sports related articles need a prose description of the final match, the article currently just lists results. I would also like to see wider coverage of this, even in just India where cricket is big. I do see the Indian PM commented on this, so.... 331dot (talk) 16:10, 20 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. Iridescent makes a very good point, these matches do not seem well attended(if attended at all) in person, let alone getting sufficient coverage in the news. I understand the desire to promote sports with disabled athletes, but ITN is not for generating interest in any event. It must already have interest. I would note the upcoming Winter Paralympics will be posted when they open. 331dot (talk) 18:09, 20 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose with regretAbishe, top marks for bringing this kind of event to ITN but as mentioned above, it's not really scratching a mark on the news items our readers would expect to see. I know it's scant consolation, but I would definitely consider making this into a DYK, and I'll help you, or if not, we can work on it to get it to GA. Please let me know. Best wishes. The Rambling Man (talk) 22:16, 20 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Pope Francis visits Peru and meets 4,000 members of the indigenous communities from the Amazon rainforest. He states that the people of the Amazon are threatened now more than ever, and questions the conservationist policies that affect the Peruvian rainforest. In Puerto Maldonado, he asks for the indigenous communities to be recognized as partners instead of as minorities. He calls on the Peruvian people to put an end to practices that degrade women, and criticizes the sterilization of indigenous women. (Anadolu Agency)(America)
Twitter announces it is notifying 677,775 people in the U.S. that they had some contact with the Kremlin-linked troll farm, Internet Research Agency, during the 2016 election period. The count of Russian-linked bot accounts is now 50,258, the company having identified an additional 13,512 bot accounts since its November Congressional briefing. (Politico)(Mumbrella)
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Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
Support - added some refs to the filmography. Much of what's unref'd in the body could be dup'ed to the filmography as the body basically IS a filmography. I think it's good enough. GCG (talk) 00:32, 22 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose, but Preposition. The article is still unsourced as some statements are unsourced. What if, we create a separate page for her filmography and then use the same sources to fix her career section. --TDKR Chicago 101 (talk) 04:11, 22 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
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Article updated Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
Nominator's comments: Notable rapper who died young and has created songs with a variety of well-known people. Despite being a relatively short article, it is also well-sourced. --PootisHeavy (talk) 22:00, 20 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Article updated Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
No consensus for a successful test firing. Stephen
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It's the fifth test occurred so far so doesn't seem that significant. When Agni V becomes operational seems more of an event - The Agni V is expected to undergo a final test later in 2018 before being made operational.Galobtter (pingó mió) 10:10, 20 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose As above, I do not see the fifth test (which isn't even the first successful test) to be particularly significant. My personal, somewhat arbitrary, standard is to see if a particular news item is appearing in news sources outside the source country: and I am not seeing much of this. Vanamonde (talk) 14:15, 21 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
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Closing for now given consensus against. Re-open when the water does actually run out, as this seems to be the point of contention for most who oppose (myself included). Stormy clouds (talk) 15:32, 19 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
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Nominator's comments: The Mayor of Cape Town recently announced that the City will run out of water by late April. I updated the article, and I think everything is referenced. Notecardforfree (talk) 08:06, 19 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose unless there's something to indicate that there's any particular significance. While it may be the first time this has happened in Cape Town, water supplies to major cities running low is a fairly routine occurrence; the 2014–17 Brazilian drought and the 2011–17 California drought are probably the ones that will be most familiar to readers, while readers in Australia and the south of England will be wearily familiar with the phrase "hosepipe ban". Besides, this kind of thing generally takes years to resolve as people change their water-use habits, desalination plants and diversionary aqueducts are built, and people wait for the aquifers to refresh. ‑ Iridescent08:55, 19 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose ongoing as the odds of incremental updates seem remote; I might support posting the actual shutoff of municipal water services (when/if it happens) as that seems very unusual to me. 331dot (talk) 09:40, 19 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Support It is unprecedented for a city of 4 million to be within less than 3 months of having to switch off municipal water. I'm not sure what restrictions were in place in Brazil or California, but this is well beyond a hosepipe ban - that has been in place for ages, with a wide range of severe restrictions and residents restricted to 50 litres of water per day. This has been featured in many international news sources including Newsweek, CNN, Forbes, Al Jazeera, BBC, Daily Mail UK, Time Magazine. Zaian (talk) 09:56, 19 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose now. ITN is not for speculation - if it happens and/or when some drastic action related to it is taken then that will be the point at which it is suitable for posting here. Thryduulf (talk) 14:00, 19 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose If they do have to announce a drought I would reconsider, but this is primarily a statement to get citizens and businesses into action to help avoid it, and not an actual event. --Masem (t) 14:36, 19 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Comment I just want to let everyone know that I am still working on this article. It needs a bit of updating with regards to its political impact and I would like to add a graph as well. I am also planning to get an aerial photograph of one of the largest dams to better illustrate this article. As a resident of Cape Town I can say that this issue is still evolving so I would hold off on publishing it for now. I would wait until the taps run dry (day zero) which should be in April some time. If the taps don't run dry at all then I would be very happy.--Discott (talk) 15:11, 19 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
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[Closed] New Zealand prime minister announces she's pregnant[edit]
Boldly closing this early per SNOW instead to wait for flurry of pile on. I am afraid, this kind of gossip will likely never get to the main page in the offing–Ammarpad (talk) 02:22, 19 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
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Oppose This might have been ITN worthy a couple of centuries ago if we were discussing a queen and possible heir. But this is the 21st century and ITN is not a society page. -Ad Orientem (talk) 01:57, 19 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
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A bus carrying Uzbek migrant workers catches fire in Kazakhstan's Aktobe Region, killing 52 people. Five people escape and are treated by rescue workers. (BBC)
Article updated Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
Please tag them. As I read it, every sentence (occasionally two sentences) has a reference, and it has already been established here at ITN that it's unnecessary for every single sentence to have a citation. MurielMary (talk) 09:56, 19 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
Nominator's comments: Disasters of similar magnitude have been posted before, and the story has been picked up by various news organisations. As far as I can tell, no article on this existed, so I've created a stub here. I hope posting here might attract some editors to bring it to a reasonable standard. LukeSurltc12:44, 18 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose barring the ability to expand this out. This is not an area of the world with great media coverage, so as TRM says, to expand more beyond what's there is unlikely. But I would agree if this can get to a decent size and quality, the incident is of ITN-appropriateness. --Masem (t) 14:07, 18 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
It's quite possible to expand with Russian-language sources, for example, as I see a decent coverage there. So pending expansion this is supportable due to sheer death number, comparable with other accidents and attacks we post. Brandmeistertalk14:18, 18 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
While the article has been updated, I have concern about the use of a non-free image for the article. It's not that it is gruesome (there are likely the bodies still aboard but the are not visible) but it's just from this photo a bus on fire. We normally use free images of the vehicle type in question in such accident articles; barring that, no non-free should be used if the scene is as "normal" for the type of incident. -Masem (t) 15:09, 19 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I tend to agree. I'm not sure what encyclopedic value this alleged fair use adds, after all there are plenty of images of that type of bus and it doesn't take a great deal of imagination (if one hasn't actually seen a bus fire) to imagine what a bus on fire looks like. If it was a really unusual demise (e.g. it was sliced in half by a helicopter rotor blade) then I could see how it would be fair use and add EV, as it stands it's just a bus on fire. If fair use is extended to this, then we'll be scraping Bestgore.com for multiple "fair use" images of multiple tragedies. I don't think that's the right way ahead, so this image shouldn't be in the article. The Rambling Man (talk) 15:49, 19 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I was surprised when it was added (the infobox is the only major part of the article that I'm not responsible for), though I'm not super-familiar with fair use's boundaries. I've replaced this image with a map, though I won't personally be formally disputing the fair use of the image. If the editor who added the image decides to restore it, I'm not going to revert it back. --LukeSurltc17:22, 19 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
As ITN rarely has to worry about non-free content in the nominated articles (at least, as an issue to contest), we still should be aware this is part of a quality of the article, as NFC is a core content tenet like BLP. We don't want to encourage frivolous use of non-free media. The image would currently fail WP:NFCC#1 (nothing unusual about this accident that a picture of the same type of bus that could be obtained freely could illustrate) and WP:NFCC#8 in that there's nothing documented special about the visual image of the bus on fire. If it image is added back, then this article is not to the quality of ITN. --Masem (t) 17:45, 19 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I uploaded it under fair use just to be safe bc its a huge piece of news, but I'm pretty sure it's public domain since its from the Kazakhstan government and the extent of use on major commercial newspaper websites, some even without attribution (under the PD-Kazakhstan-exempt tag).--PlanespotterA320 (talk) 17:52, 19 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Created a File talk page here. Can someone who knows more about copyright help? I thought it would meet the official document (as it is part of the investigation) parameter and the news parameter, so wan't sure which one it was and din't want to leave uncategorized. I think its better to be too careful than not enough.--PlanespotterA320 (talk) 18:08, 19 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Comment – There are fairly complete stories on BBC and Reuters, and other RS stories may be expected due to death toll. Concur with Brandmeister re significance. However, suggest article be renamed 2018 Kazakhstan bus fire. Sca (talk) 17:12, 18 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I found a computer and added it in. Practically, the article has everything that's currently in the English-language sources. --LukeSurltc19:29, 18 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
There was a more expansive piece from RFERL this morning, and I've used this to expand out the article. I think this expands beyond stub-class and posting should be considered now. --LukeSurltc08:49, 19 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Weak support – The article is pretty thin all right, but due to number of casualties.... (Repeat suggested name change to 2018 Kazakhstan bus fire.) Sca (talk) 15:55, 19 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Weak support from my original oppose. Really good work on the article, creators and editors have listened to the community, it's still a dead end as far as I can tell, nothing fundamental will actually change as a result of this incident, but I acknowledge it's a big death toll and a tragic outcome for a simple bus journey, and was definitely headline news, albeit fleetingly, on even the BBC. Good to go. The Rambling Man (talk) 19:33, 19 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
Support Our article details the confusion of sources about the subject's birth date. As this seems to be well done, it's good to get this out there to help in explaining the matter to the world. We know from the case of Jimmy Wales that such dates can be difficult to agree and so it's good to have another detailed example. Andrew D. (talk) 13:44, 18 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Reading that, all the accounts of his life prior to where it can be documented (1946) reads really funny, and I agree feels like synthesis from WP here. I see what sources do talk about this period all state he gave different accounts, so it might be better to reduce that part to less conjecturing. --Masem (t) 15:22, 18 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Christmas. Or an admin. I'd be delighted to post it for you but, hey, as we know, that's off the cards now. I was always pretty sharp with these things, never turned text purple or anything like that. The Rambling Man (talk) 20:53, 20 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Donald Trump tweets a link to the Republican National Committee's "Fake News Awards", won by ten stories and tweets that he considers misreported. The link also honors ten ways the President "has been getting results" thus far. (Politico)
The Venezuelan government confirms that Óscar Pérez, the rogue pilot responsible for the Caracas helicopter incident in June 2017, was killed in a firefight with the Venezuelan Army yesterday. Two police officers and seven people from Pérez's group were killed, and six members of Pérez's group were arrested. (CNN)(teleSUR)
The United States will withhold $65 million for Palestinian aid paid via the United Nations Relief and Welfare Agency stating that UNRWA needs to make unspecified reforms. The U.S. says it will provide $60 million, 48 percent of the regular payment. (Reuters)
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
Strong oppose As you rightly admitted. I counted over 14 unreferenced paragraphs, unsourced major sections, many parmenently dead references and sources which are clearly not reliable. Plus the death has been over a week. You shouldn't have nominated this. –Ammarpad (talk) 08:55, 23 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
Did you read the notes? the nomination of any individual human, animal or other biological organism with a standalone Wikipedia article whose recent death is in the news is presumed to be important enough to post. Discussion should focus only on the quality of the article.The Rambling Man (talk) 21:23, 19 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
Question - keep in mind that NSPORTS does not consider college players notable by default, and if he committed suicide which is the only reason elevating this to notability, that would possibly fail BLPCRIME. --Masem (t) 14:49, 17 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The first of those two links looks like a local news human interest piece that doesn't do anything to establish notability. The second is better, but if that's the only thing you've got that isn't routine (I haven't looked at any other sources in the article) then I'm not sure I wouldn't support an AfD. Thryduulf (talk) 17:27, 17 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Well, this isn't the forum to discuss notability. If someone wants to take this to AfD, then we can do that, and this nom will be stale here. If nobody does that, we should be judging it here based on ITN/c merits. – Muboshgu (talk) 17:46, 17 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The article is new for the purposes of RD, we need to evaluate if it is appropriate. If the article had existed well before this, I'd accept we had this article and presumed it was considered notable. But given the article was created on the news of his apparent suicide, which is something BLPCRIME strongly urges against, we should be evaluating if this is really an appropriate stand-alone topic. --Masem (t) 18:52, 17 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. Nothing wrong with the article (in fact far better than the usual stuff that appears in situations like this), but the fact that it was only created on the subject's death suggests that he may not have been particularly notable. The question we need to ask is - if he'd been run over by a bus, would we have an article? One could argue on both BLPCRIME and BLP1E grounds on this one. As regards the coverage, the second link provided above is local coverage of the Cougars (see the top of the page). On that basis - not that I would - I could create articles on half a dozen footballers for my local team that have never played a professional game. Black Kite (talk)19:03, 17 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Just a note that per ITN guidelines, opposes based on notability will likely be ignored. The appropriate way to dispute notability is to nominate for AFD. Mamyles (talk) 21:14, 17 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Opposes on notability grounds are fine if it's a brand new article and therefore hasn't had a chance to be checked for such. That's simple logic. But regardless, my oppose is not "he's not notable", but "I'm really not sure if he is notable, is there anything that could change my mind on this?" rather than rushing straight off to AFD. Black Kite (talk)21:46, 17 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Exactly - that's why mine is not an outright oppose, just that on the current basis of "played high-school and some college with not an amazing record, and then appeared to committed suicide" is generally non-notable for WP, but that could be proven out otherwise. --Masem (t) 22:07, 17 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Comment ITN is not a substitute for AFD. If you think the subject fails WP:N (or one of it's many sub-guidelines) take it to WP:AFD where it belongs. Being considered for AfD will disqualify the item from ITN and you'll have done your civic duty. The requirements for RD are clear, and opposes for "notability" ought to be ignored by any admin considering the item. --CosmicAdventure (talk) 20:43, 18 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
@CosmicAdventure: The point is that we are not sure if the subject fails WP:N, nominations at AFD where the nominator isn't sure tend to be frowned upon, and I (and presumably we) don't want to shut down the nomination if they are notable. Thryduulf (talk) 02:41, 19 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
@Thryduulf: We finally killed "notability" discussions for RD, replacing them with "well, I'm not sure if it'll pass an AFD or not so I'll just raise doubts here" is the same thing. This nomination has been shut down, with two opposes for notability. Either an article fails WP:N or it doesn't, and WP:AFD is the place to find out. I belive you're all acting in good faith, but we simply cannot let RD discussions become AFD-lite. --CosmicAdventure (talk) 12:25, 19 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I completely respect the point here, but I have a different reading. The RFC would seem to suggest there is no longer a difference between ITN-level notability and GNG; if it's good enough for WP, it's good enough for ITN (RDs, that is). I don't believe that suggests we cannot make the GNG argument here. The ITN project adheres closer to WP guidelines than WP as a whole, because the size is more manageable. If an article does not meet GNG, it should not be posted to MP and it should be AFDed, but requiring the AFD is like trying to apply ITN standards to the whole site. AFDs are more work and they opening the nominator to criticism. The effect is that most who don't believe there is notability will just abstain altogether, which is exactly what has happened here: note zero support despite the article technically meeting the requirements. GCG (talk) 14:05, 19 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
RD is based on the assumption that there was an existing article for sometime, thus notability was presumed. This article was created because of the death, so that RD assumption is not applicable. We can evaluate the notability of the topic here. --Masem (t) 14:09, 19 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Article updated Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
Posted. There were two uncited things I spotted, I've fixed one of them and the other is already tagged but it's not contentious and should be easy to source for someone who knows the topic so I didn't think it should stand in the way of posting. Thryduulf (talk) 17:35, 17 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
SupportWeak oppose We did post the new head of the similarly-sized Church of England (Nov '12), so we should tread carefully here to avoid BIAS. This is a sect that has been subject to continual persecution (see vote #1 in this nom) since its inception. I think it would be appropriate to post the head of any church with over 10 MM adherents (subject to ITN and quality, of course). GCG (talk) 13:05, 17 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
On second look, there's a bit too much uncited to post right now. Two CN tags, a few more graphs with no refs, and the positions section only cite 4 of 12 items. GCG (talk) 13:57, 17 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Same as GreatCaesarGhost, reasonably well cited but missing citations in beginning two paragraphs of LDS church service and professional leadership. Galobtter (pingó mió) 14:18, 17 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose on quality I'm neutral on this (I see both sides), but irrespective of that, the artilce is missing sources in several places particularly on positions and awards at the end. --Masem (t) 14:14, 17 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Comment I have removed a CN tag and updated the announcement of the presidency (the article still stated that the conference would take place on Tuesday). I will try to find sources for the pending CNs. –FlyingAce✈hello14:35, 17 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Support. I have no doubts about the notability of this event. There are a handful of quality issues, but nothing that cannot be fixed with 5-15 minutes of work, and enough editors seem interested that I expect most of these will be cleared up within hours. Inatan (talk) 14:56, 17 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Comment - setting the bar at 15 million adherents being a sufficient number to post could set a poor precedent, given the fractured nature of just one religious sect. It would be an uphill struggle to argue against posting the mayor of New York on that basis, something which was snow-closed when it last arose. To grant religious stewardship greater significance over political and civic one is a clear invocation of bias and undue weight, and should be avoided. Football teams are also of significance to many, and we don't post managerial changes for them. Nelson has not become a head of state, and should not be treated as one. Stormy clouds (talk) 17:42, 17 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The problem with this is we have and will continue to post the Pope and the Archbishop of Canterbury. The Pope, of course, has a much larger flock, but AofC will get posted because of a strong pro-UK contingent amongst our editors. One voter may abstain from AofC while opposing this, or abstain from this while supporting AofC and claim innocence of bias. But when WP speaks with one voice, it is saying "mainstream church good, cult of freaks bad." 159.53.174.140 (talk) 19:54, 17 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose as this affects 15 million people and is of little to (more likely) no significance outside of that sect. This represents 1/5 of one percent of the population. Likely of no significance outside of The Americas where Mormonism hasn't widely spread. - Floydianτ¢18:36, 17 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose per Stormy Clouds & Floydian. I searched for "Russell" on Google News and all but one of the first page dealt with other Russells. Banedon (talk) 19:14, 17 January 2018 (UTC) Switch to Neutral. Banedon (talk) 00:17, 19 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose Not a large enough impact to the English speaking world... seems more like an advertisement for their religion than anything if we posted this. I can't think of how this is possibly news worthy enough for our Main Page when it isn't on any newspaper's front page. — Coffee // have a ☕️ // beans // 19:36, 17 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Reluctant Oppose Setting aside the issue of quality, religious news is woefully underrepresented on ITN. But even when limited to Christianity (and it is a hot topic of debate whether Mormonism is Christian) their numbers are pretty low. Right now pretty much the only transition in religious leadership that is all but certain to be posted is the papacy (which is ITNR). That needs to change. But a smallish confession of 15 million is not the right place to begin correcting this bias. -Ad Orientem (talk) 19:57, 17 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Support ITN currently announces the result of an election in Northern Cyprus and that only has a population of about 300K. 15 million is larger than most of the countries in the world so saying that this is of no account is to elevate secular politics above spiritual matters and that's not NPOV. But, of course, people are going to read this article in large numbers regardless of what is said and done here. It's Wikipedia and its main page that will look bad -- stale, out of touch and low quality. Andrew D. (talk) 20:12, 17 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Well, when I took a quick look it was grossly under-referenced. Now I've taken a detailed look, it's grossly under-referenced. A BLP with 13 [citation needed] tags is unsuitable for main page inclusion. Still, it doesn't look like we'll have long to wait before we see another near-identical nomination... let's get it better next time perhaps. Plus I'm not sure why we'd consider posting the head of a tiny sect, Pope, Archbishop of Canterbury, Dalai Lama, yes, head of this organisation??? Nope. The Rambling Man (talk) 22:18, 17 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Actually, changing to strong oppose. I hadn't realised, but this appears to be more cult than religion, with things like "Mormons also believe that the Garden of Eden was in what is now known as Missouri, and that when Jesus returns he will go there to create the New Jerusalem" and previous "head of religion" Brigham Young opposing black priests, and the "modern" website saying "blacks descended from the same lineage as the biblical Cain, who slew his brother Abel, [and] God’s ‘curse’ on Cain was the mark of a dark skin". What? I'd support the next top Jedi or the next top Scientologist over this. I guess at least they're bonkers, but honestly bonkers. The Rambling Man (talk) 22:27, 17 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
They're a little prominent in U.S. history and the non-coastal parts of the West U.S. even today though. The state that last had the Olympics is 60% them (2/3rds practising). Even Manhattan, New York has a Temple. They're pretty prominent for their numbers (though systemic bias would suggest posting all other religious heads of ≥15 million if this is posted (how many are there?)). They're also by far the biggest group that believes Native Americans are Jews. And New Jerusalem is supposed to be 1,500 miles tall, wide and long and you can visit the holiest hectare next to the River Boulevard bus stop sign @ 39.091°N 94.428°W near Kansas. On a c. 1 hectare city block in Independence holiest city in the world for millions of Americans except possibly Jerusalem or Salt Lake City. I think they also believe the Voyager 1 spacecraft will break through a glass-like shell between the God of this solar system and the next one if it gets far enough. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 00:51, 18 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
what. the. hell. Gents, the largest sect on Earth routinely consume the literal body and blood of their messiah. Many belief systems may indeed be far-fetched when compared to other religions, but it is not the position of Wikipedia to make any claims against a belief system or to editorialize such. Down that way lies ruin. GCG (talk) 01:48, 18 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I quite agree that the "quality" of the belief system held by members of LDS is no good reason to allow or deny posting this news item. Indeed, it can only be beneficial if more people come to realize what this organization believes in. Martinevans123 (talk) 12:03, 18 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
In addition to the quality issues, your argument is not great. From where I am sitting, the numbers are not too large. The proposed target is not going to get near the Report, so the volume argument is not supported at all. Stormy clouds (talk) 20:20, 17 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for that graph. Not only does it demonstrate that this "notable" sect is somehow less interesting than "Carillion" (really??), it also demonstrates that it's rapidly becoming stale news, and it also demonstrates that the boat was somewhat missed when traffic to this individual's page peaked a few weeks ago. Highly informative. The Rambling Man (talk) 12:05, 18 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
It is usually the case that ITN lags behind the peaks in readership. That's because ITN/C often takes time to discuss items in the the news and this naturally introduces a delay. Our readers mostly don't care what's happening at ITN/C -- they just see that something is in the news and go straight to the topic. ITN is mostly just for the record and to keep the main page looking fresh. It's not working well because of this slowness. Most other sections on the main page are updated every day but ITN is bizarrely the slowest and least timely section because of these discussions. Andrew D. (talk) 12:23, 18 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Another day has passed and ITN still has exactly the same set of blurbs. Most of them are staler than this topic and have less readership. This isn't quality; it's awful. Fortunately most our readership doesn't go through ITN. For example, Peter Wyngarde is mired in pettifogging objections here but was read by about 100K people yesterday regardless. ITN should be shut down and replaced by Top read, as has been done in the Wikipedia App. Such stats would give a better feel for what's actually happening. Andrew D. (talk) 13:26, 19 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Go ahead and propose that Andrew, instead of reminding us constantly that your preference on how ITN should work isn't how it does work. The problem is that people who continually rail against a process yet do absolutely nothing about it are quickly ignored, rightly or wrongly. I think you know what's happening here. The Rambling Man (talk) 22:25, 19 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Those “pettifogging objections” have led to a much improved, fully referenced article that is now ready for posting. ITN’s purpose is to promote quality encyclopedic content and that is more important than speed. We are not a news ticker, as you well know.Pawnkingthree (talk) 23:33, 19 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Too many {{citation needed}}s at the moment to post. However notability wise I narrowly come down on the "yes" side. I think I'd be happy to post changes in the top person in other, similar and larger religious groups. --LukeSurltc22:25, 17 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Support Article has been improved and now everything has a citation. Elevations of religious figures of similar stature (Archbishop of Canterbury Welby, Coptic Pope Tawadros, etc.) have been posted before. --Tocino07:42, 18 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
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Funny, I wouldn't compare the election of this man to be on a historical par with the selection of the Archbishop of Canterbury. Mind you, I suppose if your sect or cult or whatever is only so old, you don't have any history to look back on and compare for historical significance. The Rambling Man (talk) 20:50, 18 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Funny, I would have never guessed you'd prefer an Anglo-centric nom. First you bury this in CNs, then use those tags as a rationale for opposing. The refs get cleaned up, so you change your tactic to maligning Mormon beliefs. Then its old news. Then its low page views. Twice you called this religion with half a million adherents on each continent a "cult." I think we know where you stand on this. GCG (talk) 21:54, 18 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
No, I think you'll find every CN was necessary, unless you don't wish to adhere to WP:BLP. There's no tactic change, I made the comment relating to the absurd beliefs and teachings before the CNs were resolved. The page views were a direct response to another editor today. People have questioned whether or not Mormonism (which says Jesus will return to Missouri when he finally returns) is a cult for decades. Which "anglo-centric nom" did I "prefer"? I'm really excited to hear the response. The Rambling Man (talk) 21:59, 18 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Personal opinion of doctrine isn't really relevant to determining if the article is notable enough for ITN. I recommend not discussing it here. Thanks, Bahooka (talk) 22:05, 18 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
No, that's a strange point of view. If someone thinks that this group are simply a strange sect then clearly that has an impact on whether or not they believe the selection of their new head of said strange sect should be on the main page of Wikipedia. I recommend it be openly discussed, and that we don't try to close down active debates, thanks. The Rambling Man (talk) 22:08, 18 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Reminder to Ramblingman: One might argue whether this article should be posted on the mainpage or not. But one can (and is expected!) do so without being offensive. So maybe stop your childish behavior, and start being constructive. 2A02:A451:8B2D:1:A998:8BB1:5285:F80C (talk) 22:14, 18 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not sure what part of any of my responses you would consider "offensive" or "childish". Thanks to the world in which I live, I am able to provide personal comments on how notable this individual is and how notable his organisation is, and how his organisation presents itself, entirely based on evidence from this individual and his organisation's website etc. I don't follow how that would not be constructive. Thanks!! The Rambling Man (talk) 22:17, 18 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I don't understand you at all, other than you are apparently attempting to stop my right of freedom of speech. Please stop attempting to do that as it's grossly offensive and disruptive. The Rambling Man (talk) 22:21, 18 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose, not because of the size of the church, which I view as sufficiently large, but because the structure of the faith means that the president has very limited power to effect change. He is not a pope. Abductive (reasoning)21:46, 18 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
That was just an example of why the church may have a higher profile and interest by readers that extends beyond just the 15-16 million members. Bahooka (talk) 17:21, 19 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Double oppose per "this isn't the sect leader you're looking for", a tiny bit of research shows that literally hundreds of thousands of individuals in the United Kingdom alone have registered as Jedis. This would make the Church of Jedi larger than Mormons quite easily, and actually many of the beliefs of Jedis seem easier to swallow. So let's accept that we shouldn't be posting new leaders of sects full stop. Unless Yoda gets a look-in. The Rambling Man (talk) 20:27, 19 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
IP user, in my opinion your posts here border on harassing TRM and I would suggest that you stop. You clearly are not new to this. 331dot (talk) 22:08, 19 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Suggest Close I think this has been open long enough, and garnered sufficient participation that we can reasonably conclude there will be no consensus to post. -Ad Orientem (talk) 21:56, 19 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Comment Most of the opposers argue that this shouldn't be posted because the LDS church's 15 million followers isn't large enough. However, the ascension of the current pope of the Coptic Orthodox Church of Alexandria (which has about 20 million followers) was posted on November 4, 2012. I'm not sure about the effect of that event on the Anglophone world, which is the argument that many of the opposers are making for this event. Davey2116 (talk) 04:23, 20 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Davey2116's rationale was that we posted a listing for another Christian faith, so we should post in parity. Your second comment, Mormonism is a major branch of the Abrahamic religions and is significantly different from Christianity., contradicts this rationale. Please clarify. Stormy clouds (talk) 00:06, 21 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Riveting. However, this piece of trivia does not have any bearing on Davey2116's reason for support, nor, by proxy, does it relate to your reasoning. Therefore, could you please come up with a reason for supporting, as your current rationale is monumental in its incomprehensibility. Stormy clouds (talk) 00:34, 21 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose I'm afraid I do not see this as significant enough. There are numerous sects and cults in other parts of the world with a good many more followers: I suspect the reason we are even considering this is because Mormons have always occupied a disproportionately large space in the public imagination, thanks to things like this, this, and even this; none of which actually demonstrate the impact of this leadership change. Vanamonde (talk) 14:03, 21 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Posting. There is weak consensus to post, and I'm sure there will be some controversy so I will explain how I took into consideration different arguments. Concerns about sourcing have been resolved. One issue that has come up is whether the number of adherents to Mormonism is large enough: it looks like there is consensus that there is based on the discussion, with additional considerations for global reach of Mormonism, as well as comparing that to previously posted items on ITN (Head of the Coptic Church). Arguments regarding recency and being a cult (however that may be defined) were considered less important than the number of adherents. There were some opposing arguments that the role of the president was limited, but supporting arguments stated that the role was on par with other religious leaders posted (i.e. head of the Coptic Church of Alexandria). Neither argument was really substantiated/sourced, but the position is notable enough to have its own article (President of the Church (LDS Church)) similar to an article existing for the position Pope of the Coptic Orthodox Church of Alexandria. Lastly, as an additional means to evaluate consensus, I looked at the number of those supporting, opposing, neutral, and there were more vote changes from oppose to support or neutral than typical ITN nominations. One support !vote from an IP with no other edits was not considered. I recognize not everyone will agree with how I evaluated consensus, but I wanted to lay out my rationale. Best, SpencerT♦C20:03, 21 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Note that, even if there was no coverage at all by BBC, Nelson did make it to the The Indy. It's quite amazing that, at 93 years of gae, Nelson is the second-oldest man to assume leadership. Martinevans123 (talk) 20:54, 21 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
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Article updated Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
Nominator's comments: Notable figure within Kosovo who was assassinated. Looks well sourced in most sections, but some claims need sourced. --PootisHeavy (talk) 20:24, 16 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
oppose, still a few citations needed. The claim that "His maternal heritage is Montenegrin" absolutely requires sourcing or removal before posting. Thryduulf (talk) 17:38, 17 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
@Shhhhwwww!!: If you could elaborate on your reasoning, it would help those reviewing this nomination. I assume it is related to the citation issue raised by Thryduulf? 331dot (talk) 22:06, 19 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
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Two police officers and several gunmen are killed near Caracas in an operation to capture Óscar Pérez, the rogue pilot responsible for the Caracas helicopter incident on June 27, 2017, according to the Venezuelan government. Five people have also been arrested. (BBC)
A meeting of senior officials from countries that backed South Korea in the Korean War begins today in Vancouver which will look at ways to better implement sanctions to push North Korea to abandon its nuclear weapons. China and Russia, which backed the North in the war but have since agreed to U.N. sanctions on Pyongyang, will not be attending the meeting. (Reuters)
Nabil Shaath, the foreign affairs adviser of Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas, says that the Palestinian Central Council freezes its recognition of the state of Israel until Israel recognizes Palestine as a state. Palestine will freeze the Oslo accords. (Gulf News)
A knife fight between students breaks out in a school in Perm, Russia. Twelve injured are reported, with three of them in serious condition. (BBC)
Two people are arrested in Perris, California, after 13 people aged between 2 and 29 years old are found being held captive at their house, including some "shackled to their beds with chains and padlocks". They are all believed to be siblings. (BBC)
Win Myat Aye, Myanmar's minister of social welfare, relief and resettlement, announced that his country would begin repatriatingRohingyarefugees in Bangladesh beginning on January 23, 2018. Burmese officials also promised that a newly built camp for repatriated refugees would also be finished by that date. (The Washington Post)(ABC News)
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Article updated Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
Bumping this. A quite extensive article has been created, with lots of info on his death and the aftermath of this. This has been adequate to post for a while now --LukeSurltc12:35, 20 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Stale. Came by to post this, and found that it is older than the oldest death currently on ITN. This is a collective failure of the admin corps, on whose behalf I apologize. Vanamonde (talk) 13:54, 21 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
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Article updated Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
Article updated Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
Nominator's comments: Necessary nomination and the article seems okay - except for the discography. If we can get that referenced, this should be ready. GrossesWasser (talk) 17:29, 15 January 2018 (UTC) (talk) 11:23, 15 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Er, that's not how it works. Either the article is high quality and it gets posted, or it isn't and it doesn't. "Prominence" has nothing to do with it. ‑ Iridescent19:26, 15 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
That is another ridiculous Wikipedia policy. Timeliness (reporting a Recent Death on the front page) is important here. Withholding the news based on article quality bases the posting on an arbitrary decision by a few bureaucrats. Articles for anybody achieving WP:N are always improved upon following their deaths. It is probably the biggest and best period of time when an article is improved. Sources abound as obituaries are written (and unfortunately copied). Posting the news on the home page attracts editors to the article, incites knowledgeable people to write obituaries and articles that become better sources. THAT is how improvement happens. Expecting it to improve by osmosis before you get around to announcing a death to the world information system is backward logic and counter productive. Trackinfo (talk) 20:13, 15 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Well said by the IP. We are on a page talking about the "In the news" section. That excuse does not fly here. Simply put, whoever controls this page is using their position of authority to control content by means other than news judgement. IF that is by wikipedia policy, then the policy and possibly the people need to be replaced. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Trackinfo (talk • contribs) 20:34, 15 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
We need a sufficient quality when it comes to sourcing, writing (length), and image use to be representative of what we expect for good quality articles - it doesn't need to be perfect but we can't have major gaps. The point of ITN is to highlight articles that are good shape that happen to be in the news, avoiding any necessary systematic biases created by the media, as to draw readers that may be interested in the topic to help edit the article. But to make sure that stage is set well, we know new editors copy-cat what is on a page, and thus we look to make sure the quality is minimally representative of what we want articles to end up being. --Masem (t) 21:15, 15 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Comment Needs work, if no-one else has sorted it beforehand I'll do it when I get home, around 23:00 UTC. I hope 2018 isn't going the way of 2016, music-wise. Black Kite (talk)19:25, 15 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Support on improvements (but oppose blurb) Judging the history, Maineiac4434 did a good job on the prose, but the "Other Appearances" section is still broadly unsourced and needs to be fixed; that plus a couple CN's stand out. Oppose blurb as while young-ish, this is not creating a shock-and-awe type reaction as when Prince, Bowie, or Robin Williams died. --Masem (t) 21:19, 15 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The article is getting fixed nicely, just some sections remain. And I've tagged the one about Pope Benedict in 2001, as this is surely wrong. --Tone21:23, 15 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, I fixed the Benedict one. Can only find evidence of her meeting JP2 twice in the early 2000s, and performing once for Francis in 2013. I can't find evidence that she even met Benedict, let alone performed for him. MAINEiac4434 (talk) 21:26, 15 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Note: as can be seen by this pageview chart of the current RD's on the main page - this article was viewed by orders of magnitude more than the others, easily showing the importance of quickly bringing articles up to minimum presentation status when they are in the news. Many news outlets were found copy-pasting our article in to their websites, etc - many prior to cleanups. If it wasn't for this INTC nominationwe would have been in much worse shape. Thank you to all the editors that assisted! — xaosfluxTalk00:03, 19 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
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Article:Rappler (talk·history·tag) Blurb: The Philippine government decides to cancel the license of Rappler. (Post) Alternative blurb: The decision by the government of Philippine president Rodrigo Duterte to end the operating license of Rappler is seen by journalists as a major blow to free speech since the end of the Ferdinand Marcos dictatorship. Alternative blurb II: Philippines president Rodrigo Duterte revokes the media license of the news site Rappler forcing it to shut down. Alternative blurb III: The decision by the government of Philippine president Rodrigo Duterte to end the operating license of Rappler is seen by observers as a blow to free speech. Alternative blurb IV: The decision by the Philippine government to end the operating license of Rappler is seen by observers as a blow to free speech. News source(s):The New York Times, al-Jazeera, BBC, BuzzFeed,
What seems significant is “The S.E.C.’s kill order revoking Rappler’s license to operate is the first of its kind in history — both for the commission and for Philippine media,” the note said. and it being called an attack on press freedom. However the article isn't even updated.. Didn't see the update; the issue seems complicated, unsure of newsworthiness. Galobtter (pingó mió) 16:40, 15 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose - While this might be unprecedented in other countries, Duterte's reign in the Philippines has already established itself in the past couple years of being oppressive and dictatorial. It is not especially surprising, therefore, that he would then move to close down aspects of the media that may be critical against him. Comrade Comrade (talk) 13:08, 16 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Support on notability Just because it's not surprising doesn't mean it's not news. We post sports results after all. But the article paints a weaker picture than RS do (e.g. the NYT article cited. GCG (talk) 16:27, 16 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The bolded article doesn't mention Duterte, doesn't mention free speech reactions, and doesn't give any indication on how important or trafficked the news site is. Stephen03:59, 17 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose The article says "Despite the certificate revocation, SEC stated that Rappler can still operate since their decision isn't final", so I'm wondering what the big deal is.--Pawnkingthree (talk) 19:12, 19 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
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Nominator's comments: Although the article still states these as "ongoing", the most recent entry in the timeline is for the 7 January. My guess is the "end" of these protests will be unclear, as they're likely to fade out rather than have an abrupt stop. However, what is more clear is that there is a lack of updates to the article to justify being in ITN/ongoing. The extent of international attention to internal events within Iran is far diminished from when this was placed into ongoing. LukeSurltc12:32, 15 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Support as original nominator of the ongoing placement. There will be no fixed end to the protests, but they appear to have died down somewhat. Stormy clouds (talk) 20:12, 15 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Support There is no protests anymore and the issue is not among the main topics of the international news agencies and media. --Seyyed(t-c)05:49, 16 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Article updated Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
Oppose - the company is small. Market capitalization of less than 1 billion GBP in July 2017, revenue of 5.5 billion GBP. A few months ago Disney bought Fox for $50 billion. That's something; this isn't. Banedon (talk) 11:14, 15 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Support Disney buying fox hasn't actually gone through; the company still has double the employees as fox news; this affects those jobs, numerous construction contracts such as on hs2 high-speed line etc. Galobtter (pingó mió) 11:38, 15 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Conditional Support Top business story today. The "Blacklisting" section uses primary sources from Carillion, and the acquisitons section could probably use a copyedit (if any section better serves our readers as a list of bullet points, it's a list of acquisitions). Financial difficulties section seems to rely on a single source, the "Construction enquirer". Few CN tags and operations section reads more like "Scandals and Incidents". Overall not bad I guess it meets the minimum. --CosmicAdventure (talk) 11:59, 15 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Top business story in the UK at best. Looking at various finance sites, the top stories as of time of writing are "Euro hits three-year high as Europe leads global optimism" (Reuters finance), "Airbus can't deliver its planes to China" (money.cnn), "Apple’s iPhone 7 Plus was the second-best selling phone in China in 2017" (CNBC), "Amazon’s Grocery Sales Increased After Its Whole Foods Buy " (Wall Street Journal business). Banedon (talk) 12:02, 15 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I'm sitting in Atlanta, GA and the location aware Google and Bing news aggregators still saw fit to put the story at the top of the business section. That's good enough for me. There is a whole "Please do not..." above too... --CosmicAdventure (talk) 12:06, 15 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Weak oppose I agree that taking this from a UK angle, it's a big story, but we have to keep in mind this isn't the end of the company (yet), just its current ownership with the gov't getting involved to make sure its current workers and contracts (most for gov't related projects) continues forward. A lot of companies are close to a similar predicament, and we generally do not post those. The company is not that large on a world scale based on revenues, etc, so financially this is not a big situation either. --Masem (t) 14:23, 15 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I wonder how many companies with >20000 employees liquidate in a year - certainly aren't swamped with them - and that may atleast break the monotony of sports, disaster, and elections.. Galobtter (pingó mió) 14:33, 15 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Pulled temporarily until issues with sourcing are fixed - Until the cite errors and redlinked templates are fixed, this needs to be off the main page. As soon as that issue is fixed, I'm for posting ASAP. — Coffee // have a ☕️ // beans // 10:11, 16 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I've just removed a whole section because it wasn't relevant to Carillion, but only the companies that formed it. There are still half a dozen primary sources in there, but they're nothing contentious and it is of course OK to use primary sources for information about the company itself. I don't see a problem re-posting this at all. Black Kite (talk)10:23, 16 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The Tunisian government announces a wave of social and economic reforms after violent anti-austerity protests that have resulted in at least one death and the arrest of more than eight hundred people. (BBC)
Guatemalan President Jimmy Morales presents his second government report and starts the second half of his term surrounded by accusations of corruption and protests. Álvaro Arzú Escobar takes office as President of the Congress. Arzú is the son of former president Álvaro Arzú and both are accused of corruption. (Plenglish), (Telesur)
Science and technology
A study in Biological Psychiatry asserts that increasing the activity of the habenula brain region leads to social problems in rodents, whereas decreasing activity of the region prevents social problems. (Brinkwire)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Article updated Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
WP:IAR Proposal. Bump the MV Sanchi article to top of order (i.e. relist with date of 14 Jan) as the vessel sank today. Posting of the original story was delayed due to the protracted discussion as to whether or not it should be posted. Mjroots (talk) 13:07, 14 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Support. I agree with Mjroots. This is a significant development and has caused this story to re-appear in new sources. Blurb should be updated to include the sinking. —LukeSurltc13:12, 14 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I have to agree with TRM here. The collision article must be the target article as it actually has the sufficient update about this story. That article is not too bad, but its all proseline right now. --Masem (t) 19:29, 14 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
In South Africa, several H&M stores are closed following protests over a controversial advertisement that was featured in the store's webpage. The advertisement showed a black child model wearing a green hoodie reading "Coolest Monkey in the Jungle". Several stores are also ransacked by protesters from the Economic Freedom Fighters over the advertisement. (Reuters)(CNN Business)
Rubber bullets are used on EEF protesters at the East Rand Mall. (News24)
Disasters and accidents
A search for missing children is underway after a boat capsized off the Indian coast near Dahanu, Maharashtra. Two bodies have been recovered. (BBC)
U.S. President Donald Trump says he is extending sanctions relief for Iran one last time so Europe and the U.S. can fix the nuclear deal's "terrible flaws". (BBC)
Iran's Foreign Ministry replies that it "will not accept any change in the deal," adding that it will "not take any action beyond its commitments." (Politico)
An emergency alert warning of an inbound ballistic missile is accidentally sent out across the U.S. state of Hawaii at 8:07 HST, before being cleared as a false alarm 38 minutes later. This event caused panic and disruptions across the state on the archipelago inhabited by roughly 1.7 million people. (BBC)
The first round of the presidential election results in a second round that will be held on 26 and 27 January between Miloš Zeman and Jiří Drahoš. (Reuters)
Article updated Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
Support I was unaware of the TV Guide filmographies. That could save a lot of headache on RDs here (and WP:RSN seems to be cool with it, if anyone else was curious). GCG (talk) 14:39, 15 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Article updated Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
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Nominator's comments: Article is a WIP but news has grabbed international headlines. This sort of thing simply doesn't happen often. The alert specifically stated, erroneously, "THIS IS NOT A DRILL." Kudzu1 (talk) 19:36, 13 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. I don't think it should be deleted, but don't think it merits posting to ITN either. A national false alarm, maybe, but not this one.331dot (talk) 21:39, 13 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
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For the first time, Saudi Arabia allows women to spectate at football matches, part of an easing of strict rules on gender separation by the ultra-conservative Muslim country. (BBC)
Turkey cautions its citizens against travel to the United States in response to an advisory that warned Americans about terror threats and arbitrary detentions in Turkey. (AP via Fox News)
Nepalese authorities state that they are "discussing their response" to Trump's recent comment which referred to their country (among others) as a "shithole". Botswana summoned their U.S. ambassador, asking for clarification and expressed their concerns. (CNN)
Protesters set a government office on fire in the Pakistani city of Kasur, in a second day of riots after the rape and murder of a six-year-old girl. (BBC)
Article updated Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
Thanks for the CNs. Did what I can with notable broadcasts, but some of these are probably specious on the notability claim ('03 OSU/UM?) and can probably be dropped. GCG (talk) 02:03, 14 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Support Article is so filled with trivia it's hard to cite (e.g. that a sample of his broadcast was used in a TV mini-series seems non-BALASP). I think it's plenty good enough now. GCG (talk) 19:35, 14 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
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Nominator's comments: I suggest that we keep this open for a week (despite near unanimous Opposes) or so during which this issue should be resolved and a blurb can be posted if there are any repercussions.(At the time of writing this the BCI has talked about fastracking ansd resolving this - 11:19, 14 January 2018 (UTC) — Force Radical∞ ( Talk ⋯ Contribs )11:00, 13 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose If this does end up with any action again Misra, that's the point to post, but right now it is just accusations being made and which have been denied. Not appropriate for ITN. --Masem (t) 15:43, 13 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Weak oppose. While I can see why this was nominated (imagine US Supreme Court justices publicly criticizing Chief Justice Roberts For misconduct) we don't post accusations. I would support posting his removal or resignation. 331dot (talk) 16:11, 13 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Comment This kerfuffle seems noteworthy enough to post at some point, involving as it does the seniormost judges of the world's numerically largest democracy. I'm not sure this is the appropriate time or the appropriate blurb, though. Vanamonde (talk) 16:14, 13 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
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Article updated Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
Comment Article has been nominated for deletion by another user. Perhaps close this nomination now and wait until consensus reaches to re-nominated if not deleted. --TDKR Chicago 101 (talk) 18:10, 13 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
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Comment I don't support or oppose, but, isn't opposing just cause this is related to one country against the rules? Please do not oppose an item because the event is only relating to a single country, or failing to relate to one. This applies to a high percentage of the content we post and is unproductive.CherryPie94 (talk) 08:16, 13 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
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[Closed] US to quit nuclear deal with Iran within 120 days[edit]
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Nominator's comments: "US President Donald Trump will approve the Iran nuclear deal only one more time before abandoning it if it is not changed, White House officials say." But the deal cannot be changed by the US, so it's the end of the nuclear deal. Count Iblis (talk) 18:52, 12 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose The deal will still go for 120 days, and this is Trump pushing the EU to make the necessary changes he wants otherwise, the US just drops out. This is not a groundbreaking change in the status quo; it would be either if the EU does make changes or when the US actually drops out, either which may or may not be ITN depending. (And of course, Trump could go back at the end of 120 days and sign a new extension) This point is not an ITN point. --Masem (t) 19:04, 12 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose Nothing of significance has actually happened... yet. If/when it does we can revisit this. I suggest the OP withdraw this as it has no chance of being approved. -Ad Orientem (talk) 19:15, 12 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose posting speculation, and renewing the deal is keeping the status quo. Trump also denies making comments that are on tape, so it is difficult to believe what he states; he might likely change his mind again. If he actually does pull the US out of the deal, that would probably merit posting. 331dot (talk) 20:59, 12 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose jumping to instant conclusions is pointless. This will not happen for another 4 months and you disregarded the chance that Trump may reconsider the decision before then. Kirliator (talk) 21:53, 12 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose for 120 days. At that point the status quo will either change (and it will probably be ITN-worthy) or Trump will have changed his mind (and/or denied that he changed his mind) and the status quo wont change (and it probably wont be ITN-worthy, but I'll reserve final judgement on that). Thryduulf (talk) 22:00, 12 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
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The Santa Barbara County Sheriff's Office reports this afternoon that up to 43 people are still missing from Tuesday's mudslides as rescuers continue to search through Montecito’s massive debris field; this morning the report had been eight missing. The casualty numbers are expected to rise. (Los Angeles Times)
The Securities and Exchange Commission revokes the license of Rappler over its use of Philippine Depository Receipts (PDRs) issued to Omidyar Network. The commission ruled that the provisions of the PDRs issued by Rappler to Omidyar violates constitutional restrictions on foreign ownership and control of companies. Critics of the administration of President Rodrigo Duterte condemned the move as an "attack on press freedom". (GMA News)(Reuters)
Twitter posts disseminate claims that actor Kirk Douglas (aged 101) had been accused in the past of having sexually assaulted actress Natalie Wood when she was 16 years old (c. 1954). (Mediaite.com)
U.S. PresidentDonald Trump refers to Haiti, El Salvador and African countries as "shithole countries" in a private meeting. (CNN)
Sports
The world's oldest professional football player, 51-year-old Kazuyoshi Miura ("King Kazu"), has extended his contract with Yokohama FC, to take him into his 33rd professional season. (CNN)
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Article updated Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
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Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
After failing to reach agreement on an extension of the 101-day ceasefire, hostilities resume between Colombia's government and ELN forces. (Colombia Reports)
Ivorian soldiers in Bouaké attack the Coordination Center for Operational Decision-Making (Centre de Coordination des Décisions Opérationnelles) military base, seizing their weaponry and setting the base on fire after accusations that the unit was spying on them. Last year the soldiers were involved in a series of mutinies. (Reuters)
Senior General Min Aung Hlaing posts on Facebook that Myanmar Army troops and Rakhine State villagers killed 10 Rohingya Muslims whose bodies were found in a mass grave in Inn Din village. This is the first time Myanmar's military has officially acknowledged extrajudicial actions against the Rohingya. Fortify Rights chief executive officer Matthew Smith says the two Reuters journalists who have been jailed since December 12, 2017, were investigating the same mass grave referenced by Min Aung Hlaing. (The Washington Post)
The United States Central Command launches an investigation into a video posted on YouTube which appears to show a U.S. service member firing on civilians inside a truck on a road in Afghanistan. The montage video, titled "Happy Few Ordnance Symphony", has since been removed. (Politico)
More than two hundred people are arrested across Tunisia as protests against economic conditions continue to grip the North African country. At least 49 police officers have been injured during clashes with protesters. (BBC)
Article updated Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
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Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
Nominator's comments: The article is rated B-class but I don't know why. There's an orange tag and only 5 references. I'm only nominating this in the (probably futile) hope that it gets improved. -A lad insane(Channel 2)02:30, 12 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I was thinking of nominating this yesterday, but when I saw that essentially the only ref was for his death, I decided there's no way I could bring it up to snuff. - Floydianτ¢14:20, 12 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
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Oppose missed the boat again, this was something of minor note a few days back, it's drifted out of the mainstream news now, and is relatively minor at this time. The Rambling Man (talk) 22:14, 11 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
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[Closed] Robert Marchand retires from cycling[edit]
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Oppose a centenarian cyclist is interesting, but not especially notable. His retirement makes the Reuters newswire, but not the front pages.--LukeSurltc16:00, 11 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose sportpersons retirements are not ITN barring very exceptional cases, moreso someone well past their prime. --Masem (t) 16:06, 11 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
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No consensus to post at the current time. There are several issues here: Is the topic notable enough to be covered at ITN? There is a clear consensus that it is. Is it currently in the news enough and in a way that makes it suitable for posting now? There is a slight consensus against this. Is the article being currently updated? Yes, but there is no consensus (either way) if it is enough or the right sort of update. Is the article of good enough quality to post on the main page currently? There is no consensus about this - although there is a strong consensus that it needs to tread carefully with respect to BLP, and a few comments that some linked articles have failed to do this, there isn't agreement on whether the nominated article is good enough. Given the number of things that there isn't consensus about and the number of people who've expressed their opinions already I don't see scope for a consensus to post to emerge unless something significant happens in the real world that is reflected in the article. If that happens I suggest a new nomination will be more productive than re-opening this one. Thryduulf (talk) 21:54, 10 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
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Weak oppose due to the article itself. In a quick check, the latest sources added are from about a week ago and the Golden Globes are not mentioned. Yes, editing is going on but not really with the up-to-date updates, which is the requirement for ongoing. Too bad this was not nominated in October. Will change to support if I see the updates from the last days. Also, if this is posted, it should use the #MeToo format. --Tone07:56, 10 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose good faith nom, story might be getting updates, but it's not "in the news" anymore. Weinstein was nominated months ago and the nom was angrily shouted down as "ARGH BLP vio!" and "not a tabloid!". Sorry Ed. --CosmicAdventure (talk) 11:36, 10 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Support It is clear from the editing history this is being updated with new, susbstantive information on a nearly daily basis (several thousand character additions based on new developments). Much of the newest additions seem to be from non-Western and non-Anglophone sources, which may be why the impression that the story is passed locally may be made, but this is clearly both still making news and still being updated. --Jayron3211:38, 10 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose In addition to the staleness, this is a topic that is being treated by the reliable media in a manner that is difficult for WP to cover, in that there is a lot of "guilty-until-presumed-innocent" reactions to the accusations, making it a BLP nightmare, among other issues. It is the type of article on current events that we will implicitly have problems covering in an appropriate encyclopedic manner until the event has reasonably died out (in contrast to most other events like disasters, attacks, etc.) --Masem (t) 14:14, 10 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
⇒ Good points about nature of topic, which has become sensationalized (due to underlying prurient interest) even by some RSs. Sca (talk) 14:28, 10 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
How is it a "BLP nightmare". WP:RS are reporting "accusations" and WP content reflects the same. No BLP vio in reporting the fact that the subject was accused is there? --CosmicAdventure (talk) 14:34, 10 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Per BLP, we should be careful of including random accusations or minor crimes about persons, unless they contribute significantly to their notability. Within #MeToo, no question that the accusations against ppl like Weinstein or Kevin Spacey meet that threshold (since they did appear to prove out true), but some of these others are not. We should wait for formal charges/trial cases to be enacted rather than covering when the accusations are made. --Masem (t) 14:42, 10 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
While very few names are named in the metoo article, it links to Weinstein effect which is the "master list" of accusations, which itself begs BLP issues (I'm not saying its violating, just needs a careful treatment). The MeToo story is sustained in the news mostly due to which new accusations have been issued and effects of those. --Masem (t) 15:04, 10 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
We can take this to talk, but consider Roy Moore, who has denied the allegations, yet the absolutely played a role in his candidacy and as a result are notable. Wikipedia, as a serious encyclopedia, can't just ignore these allegations when they're significant to the subject. It's no BLP vio to clearly indicate they're only allegations. --CosmicAdventure (talk) 20:27, 10 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
But Moore's case is obvious, it had some role in the election campaign. But for example Stan Lee has also had allegations reported in RSes, he's denied them, but appropriately, they're not included because there's no clear role on his career (and in this case, validity based on other sources). That's the type of random rumor-mongering we are supposed to avoid under BLP. --Masem (t) 20:37, 10 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, you said all that in your nomination, but, for example, if we wish to post this "hashtag", the info in the article on the hashtag should surely be updated? "The phrase "Me too" had been used more than 200,000 times by October 15,[24] and tweeted more than 500,000 times by October 16.[1] On Facebook, the hashtag was used by more than 4.7 million people in 12 million posts during the first 24 hours.[11] " It's January. What are the stats now? One guesses nowhere near as "sensational". If we post this now, I guess we can reconsider adding the United Kingdom football sexual abuse scandal which is actually seeing actual people in actual court facing actual justice, rather than lots of people making accusations and bolstering their own profile by tagging along with this showbiz piece. The Rambling Man (talk) 15:55, 10 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose as much as I would like to support this (being a female myself), this phenomenon has been going on much longer than many people think. This is virtually stale. Kirliator (talk) 16:26, 10 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose Stale, BLP nightmare (in many cases hearsay evidence long past the statute of limitations, unlitigable, and defamation per se); also, why didn't we post Alt-Right, SJW, Cuckservative, and Colin Kaepernick or Tebowing when these were trending? Because this is not a forum for tabloid rumor-mongering and meme replication. See also, Pet Rock. μηδείς (talk) 16:45, 10 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
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A three-judge federal panel rules North Carolina's congressional district map was illegally gerrymandered because legislators relied too heavily on partisan affiliation in drawing constituencies. This is the first time a federal court has struck down a redistricting plan for partisan gerrymandering. (NPR)(The Atlantic)
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Oppose unless there are unforeseen sequelae. Remote event, no casualties reported in the article which is a stub compared to our example new article in the guidelines for ITN postings. μηδείς (talk) 16:54, 10 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
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[Posted] 2018 Southern California landslides[edit]
Weak oppose. Landslides are not uncommon in California, especially after the near-constant wildfires there in recent years. 331dot (talk) 15:02, 10 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Support over 20,000 evacuated, and 15 reported dead at this point. CA Landslides are not unknown, but neither are EU train crashes, and this carnage is not just a run-of-the mill yearly event. μηδείς (talk) 16:51, 10 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose too minor. There're events that affect much more people (such as the recent blizzard) or kill more people and still aren't posted. Banedon (talk) 22:20, 10 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Support pending improvement – I don't have statistics on-hand, but I don't recall landslides in California being particularly deadly over recent years; 15+ casualties is unusual to me for this type of disaster (more so than nearly two-dozen snow-related car accident deaths). ~ Cyclonebiskit (chat) 00:02, 11 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Support pending improvement While the wildfires themselves were not very harmful then, this aftereffect is very significant, but I do agree this article could be expanded more. (It could possibly be merged to the wildfire article since everyone's agreeing it was a direct aftermath from those, but that's not necessary here yet). --Masem (t) 01:04, 11 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Support, it's an important story not because of the size of the disaster, but more because it's a ultimately due to climate change. The fires are caused by drought, which in turn is a consequence of the Arctic heating up much faster than the rest of the World. This weakens the jet stream and causes fixed weather patterns. So, droughts last longer and you can also get longer lasting wet periods. This combination leads to drastic changes in the local environment which may then cause problems like in this case, landslides. Count Iblis (talk) 01:12, 11 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose This was a bi-product of the more notable wildfires; those disasters being nominated would be more rationale. Regardless, the article quality is lacking--too much so for the main page.TheGracefulSlick (talk) 01:45, 11 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Support once we get the article in good shape. As it stands right now, it's painful to read. I'll be copyediting and adding sources tomorrow. SounderBruce07:18, 11 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Support. Significant development in the wildfires story, and particularly so given the mudslides affected some notable people and struck an area that was not under the mandatory evacuation. 129.97.125.1 (talk) 09:14, 11 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I've replaced the top-level orange tag with in-line {{cn}}s where appropriate. These will need to be addressed before any posting. Notability wise, I think this makes the grade, as per the venerable Cyclonebiskit. --LukeSurltc10:19, 11 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Comment Let's add weather to the sports/terrorism bucket that need some standards established. There's just no way to responsibly delineate what's worthy under current criteria; we could post weather related fatalities daily. GCG (talk) 14:29, 11 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
@GreatCaesarsGhost: pretty much impossible for weather events given massive differences in how different regions handle particular disasters. Flash flooding in Southeast Asia killing hundreds is an annual occurrence; however, if a flash flood kills 50 in Japan that's very unusual. Like Similarly, winter storms killing dozens in the United States, primarily from car accidents, is common whereas large numbers of deaths from winter storms are not as common in Europe. I vaguely remember some consensus forming around a Category 5 hurricane landfall being automatically notable for ITN given how rare those events are, but as for impact... it needs to be done case-by-case. ~ Cyclonebiskit (chat) 14:58, 11 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Right, but then we have to weigh what's comparable...are weather related deaths in the country common? If so, what about deaths from landslides in particular? If those are also common we can look at regions, but are we getting into too many qualifiers then? "This sort of thing happens in the UK all the time!" "Yeah, in Sheffield maybe, but not Basingstoke!" This creates a bias where we are more likely to post items where our editors sit, and "that part of the world" is treated as a collective. GCG (talk) 15:27, 11 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Some common sense has to be used. For example wildfires in general along the US West Coast are common (an annual occurrence), so large ones may not be appropriate ITN (because it is expected) but if a wildfire broke out in the eastern side of the country, that might be very different. We basically need to consider if it is unusual weather and resulting events for the region struck by it (compared to annual patterns). While CA's wildfires are nothing unusual, this it the first time I can recall of severe mudslides that resulted from them, making this very unusual. --Masem (t) 15:33, 11 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
While I support this particular item, the repetitive use of the "well, the darts got posted, and this is more important" is pretty blatantly an example of WP:IDONTLIKEIT. The consensus opinion formed that the darts should have been posted, so it was posted. Continued and persistent complaining about this is therefore unwarranted, and using it as a rationale for posting another story is a similarly fruitless endeavour in my view. Stormy clouds (talk) 00:27, 12 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Support This an unusually severe event with a significant loss of life (now 17) and a large number of missing people. I must say that I find the oppose rationals in general to be highly unpersuasive. The article quality is adequate for posting. -Ad Orientem (talk) 03:54, 12 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Support article seems ready and, although its definitely at the low end of the notability range, there has been a fair bit of press attention. --LukeSurltc10:58, 12 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
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The section needs some fixes. "North Korean claim to offer peace" as the paragraph title should be "Bilateral talks resume" or something. Is there a more dedicated article? --Tone08:03, 10 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Support on principle, oppose on quality The event is a no-brainer, but as others note, the paragraph added is poorly written and sourced. The blurb is also a bit too long (I'd drop the olympics part for sack of brevity). --Masem (t) 14:16, 10 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose – Developing. Despite all the foofaraw, it's still just talk about talks. Also, needs a separate target article, not one about north-south relations since WWII. Sca (talk) 14:22, 10 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose on Quality as others have noted, the sentence structure is not in its best shape and several sections are not 100% up-do-date. This article needs sufficient revising before it can be posted. SamaranEmerald (talk) 16:14, 10 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Weak oppose while undoubtedly a major development, Sca makes a good point. At the moment, these are just talks at the moment. The only real conclusion here is the North attending the 2018 Olympics. While the provided article on the current events does say they will “ease tensions” this agreement will very likely be broken (most likely by the North) after the games are over. Kirliator (talk) 16:22, 10 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Support Article is good enough I've seen worse and subject is newsworthy, but perhaps the idea of NK being in the Olympics may be better per Kirliator. --TDKR Chicago 101 (talk) 23:27, 10 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Note: I've added an altblurb I feel better states things per the consensus. It may need rewording, but it should serve as a start. - Floydianτ¢04:39, 11 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
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@LukeSurl: Thanks for the comment. Can you instead search through the net? The infobox can be wrong for any reasons. Also note that the timeline section is no longer updated! There are really no more developments. --Mhhosseintalk18:27, 9 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Keep new, valid information is being added to the article daily or even more often; there's some minor stability issues which can be forgiven due to the nature of the subject matter. The subject remains in the news, and the article is of sufficient quality and continuously updated. Checks all the necessary boxes for an ongoing link. --Jayron3218:32, 9 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Are you aware you don't "win" simply by repeating the same rationale multiple times? You're still just one person, and saying the same thing over and over again to everyone who doesn't agree with you (which at last count is... everyone) is not helpful. --Jayron3218:50, 9 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
There was just an update today thanks to an admin responding to a talk page request. The article can (and still does) receive substantive updates. --Jayron3218:50, 9 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Remove Any anti government protest is not seen in Iran as well as any demonstration from people who disagree with protesters. It is a usual thing that every action in politic world had a reaction but now in Iran breaking news isn't about protests. Lstfllw203 (talk) 18:57, 9 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
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Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
The Supreme Court of India orders a review of Section 377, a colonial-era law that criminalizes consensual sex between men, and of the Court's December 2013 verdict that upheld the law. In August 2017, the Supreme Court ruled that all Indian citizens have a constitutional right to privacy, noting in the judgment that "sexual orientation is an essential attribute to privacy." (The New York Times)(Hindustan Times)
Amid protests against rising prices and tax increases, a protestor is killed and five others are injured in clashes with security forces in the Tunisian town of Tebourba. (Reuters)
Congressman Mario Díaz-Balart, in a statement, comments, "... while living conditions may have slightly improved, El Salvador now faces a significant problem with drug trafficking, gangs and crime." (CNN)(House.gov)
Support In addition to the death/missing toll, this constitutes a volume of spilled oil greater than the Exxon Valdez oil spill, will cost tens of millions of dollars, and disrupt shipping routes around Shanghai. I think this shouldn't be considered as a usual "things-run-into-other-things-all-the-time" incident. Davey2116 (talk) 06:03, 10 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Condensate rather than crude. Its a greater volume, but its unlikely to have a similar impact due to the nature of the oil being transferred and the location. It could be worse, it could be less impact. Only in death does duty end (talk) 09:14, 10 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose coverage of this is pretty poor. My search didn't even fill the first page. Switch to Support since there's been a surge in coverage. Whether or not there's a massive spill or explosion is irrelevant - it implies that a good outcome makes the event somehow less notable. Banedon (talk) 07:13, 10 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose taken with a pinch of salt, admittedly, but there are claims that no massive spillage has yet occurred. I'd reconsider if the death toll increases and certifiable massive environmental damage, along the lines of Exxon Valdez, takes place. The Rambling Man (talk) 08:17, 10 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose Unknown impact on the environment at this time. The BBC is updating daily on this, danger of exploding on the 8th, the story today is still not/no indication its about to explode. If it does actually explode or spill heavily this should be revisited. Only in death does duty end (talk) 09:14, 10 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Weak Support another barely notable transport accident with a barely above stub article. It was in the headlines here the day it happened, and the tiny article barely meets update criteria -- it's also well sourced. --CosmicAdventure (talk) 11:27, 10 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Easy. Lead is a summary of body, doesn't count. Article size is bulked up by the ref tags, actual text is less than half. Look, you wrote a solid article with the information available, it belongs on the encyclopedia. It's just that it'll never likely expand, since the press will move on in a day or so and nothing new will be reported. --CosmicAdventure (talk) 12:07, 10 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Lean support but wait for more details The tanker has now partially exploded CNN while the 31 ppl are still missing, and they know they have to clean up the crude oil that spilled (but the level of that cleanup unclear) This is a major industrial accident at this point, it could get worse. --Masem (t) 14:35, 10 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Strong support. A large number of people are missing, and if this does become an environmental disaster, it's in an area that's would affect many countries. Even for the time being, the story is significant and of international scope: the main countries implicated being China, Iran, Panama, and South Korea. 129.97.125.1 (talk) 09:18, 11 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Strong Support - major international maritime disaster involving several countries (China, Iran, South Korea, Bangladesh, etc.), high number of dead/missing, multinational rescue operation. Article is well referenced. -Zanhe (talk) 15:15, 13 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator's comments: Article is technically updated, but the update is extremely short and needs more context before going on the main page. Taken from the current events portal. Note that I have no idea why the template won't show the blurb proposal. Ed[talk][majestic titan]03:24, 10 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose not really "in the news" and according to the article, this happened on 5 Jan, not 8 Jan. Plus, an evacuation of a handful of people is hardly notable. The Rambling Man (talk) 08:14, 10 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
We post an annual darts championship and a boat race between two universities. Meanwhile, a volcano has erupted for the first time, and real people's lives are being affected. YMMV. Ed[talk][majestic titan]14:48, 10 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Support on significance, oppose on quality of article and update. The article is barely above a stub, and the part about the current event is all of three sentences long, one of which is entirely quotes. I wouldn't learn enough more from the article than the blurb (which I also can't work out why it isn't showing) to make it worth clicking on the link. Thryduulf (talk) 22:02, 10 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Comment bizarre. This is trivial. A minor volcano has erupted causing minor inconvenience to a few hundred people. Nobody died, nobody was injured. It's barely "in the news". Why is "(possible) first eruption in history" notable since it's a volcano, it might erupt? "While it is the first time believed to have erupted, a possible eruption was witnessed by early explorers in 1700", even experts are just noting this as "the first “surprise” volcano" of 2018, i.e. such "surprise volcanic eruptions" are to be expected. The Rambling Man (talk) 22:06, 10 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
[Closed] 2018 College Football Playoff National Championship[edit]
weak consensus against. My read of the discussion is that there is consensus that being an amateur event is not, on it's own, a reason to oppose, but such events are not as inherently significant as professional ones in sports that have both. There is consensus that where an event is not the top level of the sport there needs to be some other indication of importance or significance, but there is no consensus for there being such in this case, particularly given the limited international interest. There is also a very strong consensus that the age and/or quality of current blurbs is not relevant. Putting it all together and I find there is a weak consensus against posting and no prospect of a consensus to post developing any time soon.
ITN/R was mentioned, but this is not relevant here. If anyone thinks that this should be on the list of recurring events they should nominate it at WT:ITN/R, but it not having gained consensus to post for the past several years means that such a nomination seems unlikely to be successful. Thryduulf (talk) 03:48, 10 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Nominator's comments: Here we go again. This is a major sporting event, and would make only the third gridiron football story posted in a year. In many parts of the U.S., including Alabama and Georgia, college football is a way of life. It draws millions of viewers, earns millions of dollars, and is a major part of American sporting culture for the players and the fans. – Muboshgu (talk) 03:05, 9 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose Amateur event, not the highest level of the sport. Makes millions for broadcasters, coaches etc, none of the players see any of it. 91.49.64.154 (talk) 04:17, 9 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Just to add, for me it is pretty irrelevant how much money it makes someone or something. If that were important the playoff final of the english championship would be posted every year because it has the biggest prizemoney in sport. Not being the highest level of the sport and being played by amateurs is a good enough reason to oppose for me. You of course can disagree but pointing at other things does not make me change my mind about this. 91.49.74.40 (talk) 05:12, 9 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
It was not my only reason. The main reason still is that the Superbowl exists, is the highest level of the sport and hence will be posted. And why are you not all over Eds support which only consists of WP:IDONTLIKEIT about the darts and wanting a newer item posted. That are valid reasons? Some of the other supports are just along those lines. But i guess because you agree with their votes the reasons don't matter, right? 91.49.74.40 (talk) 20:33, 9 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Nice attempt to change the subject. I'm not surprised that one dubious IP would defend another, but your poor handling of policy does make it possible that this is indeed your first time editing Wikipedia. Lepricavark (talk) 21:05, 9 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
You know where SPI is, go ahead. Otherwise how about assuming good faith and not casting aspertions without any kind of support? We don't agree on something, totally fine. To try to discredit me, or anyone else, because you want to win an argument is not though. 91.49.74.40 (talk) 21:13, 9 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I don't feel any need to discredit you. You're doing just fine as it is. This disagreement started after you distorted Ed's rationale because you wanted to win an argument. So no, I'm not going to assume that you are acting in good faith. Lepricavark (talk) 21:18, 9 January 2018 (UTC) Per my talk page, I am striking this comment and withdrawing from the discussion as I think I have said enough already. Lepricavark (talk) 22:08, 9 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
You insulted the other person as a coward before that, called me anbd the other person dubious and whine about my poor handling of policy(which is fair but not hte way you bring it up). being civil is a policy, no? Assuming good faith is a core principle, no? How about you act like the exerienced editor without trying to belittle me? Down below someone supported per Ed with the sole rationale of wanting a newer item posted as well and not supporting it otherwise." Assuming good faith does not prohibit discussion and criticism. Rather, editors should not attribute the actions being criticized to malice unless there is specific evidence of such."... Do you have such evidence? How petty are you that you will not assume good faith because we have differing opinions...91.49.74.40 (talk) 21:25, 9 January 2018 (UTC) Let's just forget about it. We disagree, let's leave it at that. 91.49.74.40 (talk) 22:05, 9 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
These are roughly the 35th best football teams in a country of 325 million. 35th best football team in Europe would be a slight exaggeration of the level of professionalism of these amateurs but not by much. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 04:47, 9 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
How many players of both team go on to become pros? A handful? The vast majority of players will not. And comparing them to the 35th best association football teams of larger european nations... you are saying that these are full time payed pros that do nothing other than play their sport? 91.49.74.40 (talk) 04:59, 9 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Well they're not there for the college. Athletes on less popular teams like any college's archery or chess team might be there for the education first but the starting 22 of the teams playing are there to try to start an NFL career. And they could probably easily get a job as an Arena Football League player or school football coach or something if the NFL thing doesn't work out, whatever top college football players study is really just for show, they're never going to use it. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 08:47, 9 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
And hardly any sport in the olympics would ever get posted for stand alone world championships or the like. Or would you support the inclusion of... say... fencing or rythmic gymnastics? Also they are not exclusivly amateur events or are you telling me that, for example, Usain Bolt was an amateur? Not being the highest level of the sport is my main oppose reason, the olmpics are the highest level for many sports. It being played by amateurs just stands out in this case because there is a huge pro league with world wide following. 91.49.74.40 (talk) 05:37, 9 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, it wasn't wholly opposed, but nor wholly supported. I will still also oppose on the fact that the structure of the championship (where 4 teams, selected by a small committee, rather than any extensive tiers as most professional sports, or even the NCAA basketball uses) makes it far less representative of a true means to determine a championship and more just a popularity contest. --Masem (t) 14:17, 9 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not sure where the "structure of the championship" appears in the criteria for ITN items. Can you point to the Wikipedia rules on this so I can read them myself? Thanks! --Jayron3214:19, 9 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
It's not an ITN element, but to me, it shows how weak this championship is; it's effectively an invitational. Yes, I'm aware the committee does use the season's records to judge who they invite, but that's still subject to human bias that most championships do not have. --Masem (t) 14:46, 9 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
It's true that the four teams get invited to participate. And there are flaws in the system, as the UCF Knights would surely attest to this year, but that doesn't take away from the size of the spectacle, the sheer newsworthiness of it (Google News is telling me "2018 college football national championship" gets "About 5,830,000 results"). – Muboshgu (talk) 14:49, 9 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Masem, we have Rugby competitions at ITNR that only include the same 6 or 4 teams by definition. Why is this a problem only for this event? GCG (talk) 15:53, 9 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
If those Rugby invitations are the top events in the sport (just as The Boat Race is for rowing), then that's reasonable. The NCAA football playoffs are not top tier relative to the Super Bowl. (And yes, I am aware we have the NBA and the NCAA basketball too at ITNR). --Masem (t) 16:22, 9 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
We don't just arbitrarily lower standards because we have what is perceived as old news. WikiTRIBUNE is that way. Figures for this years' darts final are unavailable to me at this time, but in 2016, the final saw 1.7 million. Given the relative sizes of population, and given the darts was the top-level darts contest in the world, it's pretty clear that it held its own against these amateur sports which are actually completely meaningless outside the highly niche college sport/NFL arena. How many countries play American football? How many countries can you find a dart board? The Rambling Man (talk) 20:54, 9 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
So, me saying it is an amateur event gets nitpicked and the support reasons of other events exist, i don't like it about the darts, just wanting a newer item posted and people opposing are just anti-American are ok? 91.49.74.40 (talk) 05:48, 9 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Support, the snookers and darts items are such jokes as it is, ITN should not use pathetic wikilawyering arguments to suppress the upstart American sports. The idea that only the top professional championships are to be posted is a teenage masturbatory notion of "fairness". Abductive (reasoning)05:52, 9 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Support The fact that this is an amateur university event does not change its huge cultural significance and level of public interest. We may find it strange the an amateur university event whose quality of play is presumably lower than the NFL inspires such interest and occupies such a significant place in American sporting culture, but we should not impose our personal views of what ought to be regarded as a significant sporting event - for public interest and cultural impact are what make sporting events significant. Neljack (talk) 06:00, 9 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
So i can safely assume you would support a cross country skiing nomination which has a big significance in scandinavian countries. It just is a slippery slope. There are several sports that are hugely popular in asia, like kabbadi, badminton or ping pong for example. Should they get posted on principle because they are very significant in different countries? I don't even disagree with you in principle but that attitude then cannot change for other sports significant to other parts of the world. 91.49.74.40 (talk) 06:10, 9 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Or even posting every association football league in europe/south america "whose quality of play is presumably lower than" the best leagues but each have huge "...public interest and cultural impact..." in their country. From Argentina to Poland. Every league winner should be posted following your argument. 91.49.74.40 (talk) 06:19, 9 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I would support posting a cross country skiing event as long as it met the criteria of being in the news and having a quality update, in addition to its merits. 331dot (talk) 07:08, 9 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
As I did last year I support posting the highest tier of college football. It's a different league, not a lower tier. The players are all but paid to play in it and many fans prefer it over the NFL. College football stadiums have much more capacity than NFL stadiums(Michigan Stadium). 331dot (talk) 07:08, 9 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
In addition, Earth's 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th, 7th and 8th largest non-North Korean stadia have nothing but college football teams listed as tenants. (List of stadiums by capacity). Teams which barely play a half dozen games in that stadium a year yet still make a profit (and not just from not paying the players, the coaches get at least a lot of anything saved on money to players) Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 09:15, 9 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
.....which is the case for many ITNR items; I await your proposal to cull the ITNR list of such items. College players are all but paid to play, especially at the top level. They just don't call it a salary. 331dot (talk) 09:12, 9 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The low argument here is worldwide interest; if that was a requirement, very little would be posted. The players at that level are paid in tens of thousands of dollars in "scholarships"; we just don't call it a salary.331dot (talk) 11:09, 9 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
But an arguent from above was that "Well they're not there for the college." and "the starting 22 of the teams playing are there to try to start an NFL career.". So are they there for the scholarships in the "tens of thousands of dollars" or is it just a stepping stone for a handful of players to get to the NFL? 91.49.74.40 (talk) 11:53, 9 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Both. It doesn't change the fact that these players are paid in all but name, or that college football stadiums have some of the largest capacities in not only the US, but the world, see Michigan Stadium. 331dot (talk) 14:09, 9 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Many players of good teams are there for the scholarships as a means to an end, because college is a hoop they have to go through to play. Not all would skip the actual college if they could but many would. A main reason for athletic scholarships is to attract talent to make profit and raise school spirit, though many athletes do need them to afford to go. Some students actually pick which college to go to by how good their football team are. Some are well-off enough to not need financial aid and might donate to the university with the money they make from their degree so athletic scholarship money helps the college's finances in another way. They actually have to limit football teams to 63 full scholarship equivalents and 85 total recipients since it's apparently still profitable to offer the substitute's substitute a scholarship. The reason for this weird system is that there's no U-23 U-21 etc. NFL teams like top soccer teams have and college football existed first. Also college football was originally just recreation among genuine students with no athletic scholarships. It's only as it became popular over the decades that they had to add rules to stop it from becoming completely a sham team of ringers (there was no NFL yet remember). Also to encourage the vast majority of the millions of student-athletes who are better off using the degree than trying to make a living from sports to finish their degree instead of only taking like 20% the normal class load for way longer than the normal 4 years and finding out you'll never get good enough to make a living from sports. If you're wondering about Harvard, Harvard, Yale, Princeton and a few others don't offer athletic scholarships out of academic principle despite being able to afford them and having famous teams. It's easier to get in if you have football skill but they still have a rough cutoff of roughly halfway between average intelligence and c. 99.99 percentile. Thus they haven't been top tier in about a century despite being the richest unis in the country (also many top athletes couldn't pass Harvard-level classes fast enough to not be disqualified, I believe Harvard slots were a bigger percentage of the country's population the further in the past you go so it was easier to get in then). Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 14:30, 9 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose, we already have Superbowl on ITNR. One event per sport per country for annual events is enough and it should be the top one. Would reconsider if there is an agreement to replace the Superbowl with it. Though I am sure this is not happening ;) --Tone09:08, 9 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Personal opinion. I think we are following this in all sports, like we'd post the winner of a association football league but not of football cup or other similar competitions. --Tone14:33, 9 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Weak Oppose I really want to support this, but the quality isn't there. Game summary has one ref, background and teams sections need expanding. There is a whole "Please do not..." above about complaining a story only pertains to one country. Detractors should maybe read it again. --CosmicAdventure (talk) 12:26, 9 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Support Again, the objections here are not in line with the rules for ITN (CosmicAdventure excepted). There is no "one article per sport" rule, regardless of it's following. There is no "no amateur events when a professional event exists" rule. There is no "low worldwide significance" rule. What we post for other sports is not relevant, and the rules rather aggressively discourage it. This is in the news, our readers want to see it, and the article is updated. The continued vitriolic opposition to this event is inexplicable. GCG (talk) 12:58, 9 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose - We've done this dance before for years and years, and each time we get the same result. How many times do we have to do this before the message gets through? Let's be perfectly clear: This is an amateur competition, of limited interest to readers. Period. Full stop. Can we get on with nominating actual news? 2600:387:A:3:0:0:0:63 (talk) 13:00, 9 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
You have asserted that. But you have provided no evidence to back up assertions. People who support this, have by contrast, provided ample evidence that there is sufficient coverage in reliable sources to justify this as a high-interest item. Your claim is that by merely asserting that it isn't a high interest item, that is sufficient in itself. Anyone can assert anything. It doesn't make it true. What makes it true is the evidence provided. Can you provide evidence that reliable sources are not presenting sufficient coverage of this event? --Jayron3213:14, 9 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
"This is an amateur competition, of limited interest to readers." Amateur competions are posted at ITN, including several at ITNR. Peak pageviews for this exceed any item on ITN currently. Last year's game had 600,000 views in January while the last Ashes garnered 360,000 for July/August combined. And only one of those had the benefit of being posted to the mainpage. GCG (talk) 13:29, 9 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Don't you just love it when people don't have the guts to post their opinions under their username, so they sign out to avoid scrutiny? Lepricavark (talk) 20:31, 9 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Support In the news, article sufficiently updated and is a significant sports event (even though it is not personally of interest to me). Seems to tick all the boxes.--Pawnkingthree (talk) 15:05, 9 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Reluctant Oppose Yes, this is "in the news" right now. At least it is here in the US. The problem is that every country has its celebrated college/university sports matches and rivalries. Which means that this is a door that we cannot open selectively. If we go down this road ITN is going to get swamped with these kinds of nominations. The line needs to be drawn somewhere, and we long ago decided that non-professional sports with the exception of the Olympics was not going to be covered. I agree with that consensus. But it really was a great game. Roll Tide! -Ad Orientem (talk) 16:39, 9 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
How about pretty much every domestic association football league winner, or even cup winner. Those are hugely important to pretty much each and every country in europe, south america and perhaps africa. And quite a few other sports as well. They may not be top quality but the winner of the argentine league is a HUGE deal in argentina. Should it be posted? Same for dozens of other countries. Then you have seperate cup competitions which also are quite a huge deal in some countries. The FA cup for example is very prestigious, should that be posted every year? That would only add dozens highly important sporting events in different countries more. Not even to mention some sports that are very popular but also very regional like biathlon, badminton and many more. Should all of those events get posted as well because they are very important in parts of the world? 91.49.74.40 (talk) 20:46, 9 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Too many nominations is not usually our problem. People usually say the opposite, especially this time of year. If an event meets the criteria of being in the news, getting a quality article, and is significant in some way(as is college football with millions of fans and the largest stadiums on this planet), I would be happy to support it. What's the problem here again? 331dot (talk) 20:52, 9 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
They would all be around the same time a bit later in the spring though. And millions of fans is very easily achieved by almost any association football league, or cup, where it is a huge deal and quite a few other sports. The pakistani cricket league for example surely has millions of fans as well. Should it be posted? Probably not because there are better leagues around. But going with arguments by some people here it should be. In the end this is more about systemic bias for me than anythng else. Yes it is a big deal in the us but there are many other sports and events that are a big deal in other places that would never get supported. For the same reasons people oppose this. Do you honestly believe that any sport event which has millions of followers and media coverage only in more or less one country from any place other than britian or the us would get posted? I don't. It seems obvious that we will not agree about this and that is fine. Whatever in the end, it's just a stupid game of sports *hopes no one throws a bottle at his head* 91.49.74.40 (talk) 21:07, 9 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I have little to add to the above. I suppose one could rattle off a list of college level sporting matches that are highly important in various parts of the world, or even here in the US. Beyond which I agree with Sca that this discussion has run its useful course and it is probably time for an uninvolved admin to close it. -Ad Orientem (talk) 02:40, 10 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Support Not a fan, but way more prominent than darts or snooker or curling or other barely sports that have been featuring in ITN. Gamaliel (talk) 17:08, 9 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose Amateur event, only reason it is even nominated is the fact that it is in America and that many medias reports on it like most American topics. BabbaQ (talk) 19:33, 9 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
"Please do not... oppose an item because the event is only relating to a single country, or failing to relate to one. This applies to a high percentage of the content we post and is unproductive." --Jayron3219:35, 9 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Actually, my reading of BabbaQ's opposition is that it's an amateur event. His discussion over it being an American topic merely relates to why it was nominated in the first place. The Rambling Man (talk) 20:07, 9 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Support it's very much in the news right now. I see no compelling reason to oppose, just a bunch of IDONTLIKEIT and "it's amateur", neither of which matters. Also, WP:Other stuff exists is an essay which includes the following quote: This essay is not a standard reply that can be hurled against anyone you disagree with who have made a reference to how something is done somewhere else. That essay is mainly concerned with deletion discussions, which this is not. Lepricavark (talk) 20:31, 9 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think the darts tournament was covered in the U.S. at all. How is that relevant? Even if Alabama/Georgia wasn't covered in the U.K., that's okay because it's not a requirement here. – Muboshgu (talk) 23:51, 9 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Support. I followed the playoffs in Australia although not as closely as the Ashes. This is big news in the United States. The claims about amateur sports is frankly a red herring. The Olympics was an amateur event 30 years ago. Until 50 years ago, grand slam tennis tournaments were amateur. The Rugby World Cup and Six Nations rugby tournament were amateur until 1995-96. All of these events are ITNR and would have been if they were still amateur. The UK boat races are ITN:R and college football is as big a deal in the US if not bigger than the boat races. Capitalistroadster (talk) 23:36, 9 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I would say so. I would also suggest that we should look at adding the College Football Championship to ITNR to make it as the same level as the UK boat races. Capitalistroadster (talk) 00:09, 10 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Surely you jest, but I do think that level of debate on this issue does speak to some failure of process. Clearly there are no hard fast rules for what sport makes it to ITN, but you'll find none other that sparks the level of opposition seen here. It just doesn't make sense. Arguments that would sustain any other nom fall on deaf ears here. The opposes have declared the line must be drawn here, and no further. That their line has been breached before is of no concern, for this nom shall not pass. GCG (talk) 00:47, 10 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The line, most often, is drawn before stories related mainly to the Untied States. Arguments like "global interest" and "systemic bias" are used as substitutes for "I don't like it". --CosmicAdventure (talk) 02:31, 10 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
COI Support - take my support with a huge grain of salt, since he's my uncle. But he was the fourth president of the country, served two terms, and avoided much of the controversy his predecessor and successor found themselves embroiled in. Also a nicely improved article. Guettarda (talk) 03:21, 9 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
Weak oppose - very brief article, lacks detail on his death (at 23, there must be a story there to tell?) and there's only one sentence about his Super League career and that doesn't even give the date/year of his signing. MurielMary (talk) 22:19, 8 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Article needs updating The nominated event is listed on WP:ITN/R, so each occurrence is presumed to be important enough to post. Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article and update meet WP:ITNCRIT, not the significance.
Comment - I've added the scoreline to the end (4–0), as that was the suggested blurb and nobody specifically opposed including it. Personally I support having it there because it's significant that the scoreline was that one-sided, and the blurb was short enough that it's not really problematic to add that detail. Thanks — Amakuru (talk) 09:48, 10 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
@Stephen: the nomination here called for the 4–0 to be included, and as stated above I think it's useful to include that. Please could your reinsert it? Thanks — Amakuru (talk) 11:39, 10 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Eleven people are killed in La Concepción, Mexico, near the Pacific coast resort of Acapulco, following violent clashes involving gunmen, a community police force, and state police in the southern state of Guerrero. (AP via ABC News)
Oppose media holds medicentric, media-covered navel-gazing event. Oscars and Bafta are top of the field. This year they wore black instead of AIDS ribbons. Plus ça chage... μηδείς (talk) 16:59, 10 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator's comments: Not ITNR as Northern Cyprus is a disputed state. However, still a free and fair election that shifts the balance of power in the self-administering state, so I don't see how it is any less ITN-worthy than some other elections that would be covered under ITNR (although the two aren't entirely comparable, we have previously posted Northern Cyprus presidential election, 2015). Furthermore, a lot of work has been put in to make the article as comprehensive and well-updated as possible (has more prose than German federal election, 2017, for instance). GGT (talk) 00:07, 9 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Very weakly support. I can see that this is potentially more significant than most other elections of similar-sized bodies, and that this is better written than most election articles. "Weakly" because the fact remains that TRNC is an unrecognized (except by Turkey) microstate with a population lower than that of Bakersfield or Leicester, and (with the possible exception of Islamic State) we wouldn't dream of posting changes of government for other unrecognized self-proclaimed states. ‑ Iridescent00:20, 9 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Support A de facto independent country, and the elections are of some international significance as they affect the prospects for negotiations regarding reunification. Neljack (talk) 05:44, 9 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Question, which is more important in Northern Cyprus, the election of the parliament or the president? I agree that the top election should be posted, but I'm not sure which that is. --LukeSurltc10:33, 9 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The prime minister and his/her cabinet, determined based on the outcome of the parliamentary election, have almost all power in the executive branch of the government and some influence on the Cyprus problem. The president has some role in the executive branch of the government (mainly acting to balance the cabinet) but is responsible for undertaking the negotiations for the Cyprus problem. Had the Cyprus problem not been on the table, the answer to that question would be that the top election is definitely the parliamentary one, but under the current circumstances, both are very influential in different ways and there is no definite answer to that question. --GGT (talk) 01:01, 10 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose There are ~ 200 states eligible for the ITN/R. If we are to extend this to a region whose only recognition is from the foreign state that occupies it, that seems a bridge to far. Shouldn't we require this election to have some meaningful impact? GCG (talk) 00:34, 10 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
This is not a blanket extension, all elections in all disputed states will still be evaluated on a case-to-case basis. The election does have some meaningful impact. The bottom line is that Northern Cyprus is the only disputed territory in the world ranked as "free" by Freedom House (2014 report, feel free to look for more recent ones). Furthermore, the leader of Turkey's opposition has on multiple occasions expressed admiration for the democratic practices in place in Northern Cyprus, in contrast to the situation in Turkey [18][19]. That basically implies that elections in Northern Cyprus have the impact that any election in any democratic sovereign state would with regards to the inhabitants of that state - in this case, regarding the determination of the government. It also implies that elections in Northern Cyprus are not comparable to elections in other disputed states, a point made by Iridescent. Furthermore, as Neljack pointed out, this election has international impact as it affects prospects in the talks for reunification, set to resume later this year. With all that said, I don't see how this election is any less impactful than some others covered by ITNR, say this one. --GGT (talk) 01:15, 10 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Article updated Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
Verbose? Can you be more specific? The article on John Young currently featured on RD is three times longer than this article, which suggests that detailed articles are clearly not a problem here. MurielMary (talk) 22:14, 8 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
Comment Only to note that it appears that the death on Jan 4 was kept quiet by the family/band until Jan 7, so there may be some leeway to have this dated as a Jan 7th nom. --Masem (t) 18:11, 7 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Have added AllMusic credits links as sources. But of course, as usual, all this is publicly sourced on the various labels and covers of all the individual singles, albums, cassettes, CDs and DVDs. Martinevans123 (talk) 00:46, 13 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
How many RD slots are there? All of the four current RDs died more recently. And all were nominated after this one. So unless this one's posted soon, I guess it may never appear. Martinevans123 (talk) 17:15, 13 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Thirty-two sailors are missing after Iranian oil tanker MV Sanchi and Chinese freighter CF-Crystal collide off the east coast of China. The collision ignites the oil tanker, which carried a 136,000-tonne load. (CNN), (Reuters)
Hundreds of Iranians hold rallies in support of the anti-regime protests in Iran, in cities including Washington, D.C., Stockholm, London, Paris and Berlin. About 400 people gathered in central Paris, and several hundred held a rally in front of Berlin’s Brandenburg Gate with Iranian flags, drums and banners calling for a change of government. (Yahoo! via Reuters)
Article updated Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
Article updated Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
I have cited the statements for the early parts of her life however it seems over-the-top to expect this - three sentences were all from the same source and the citation was at the end of the three. Does every sentence need to be cited? I have seen this style (three sentences with one citation at the end of them) numerous times without there being a problem with it. The statements in the "later life" section don't need to have citations. They are general comments which are then backed up by the examples in the sentences which follow them. MurielMary (talk) 04:22, 7 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
No, not every sentence requires a cite. Claims that could reasonably be challenged do. If you have several sentences that are all supported by the same reference it is perfectly OK to just cite the one ref at the end of the three sentences. The important thing is that any claims of fact that are not obviously non-controversial are supported with an appropriate reference. -Ad Orientem (talk) 04:26, 7 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Yes that is how I understood citations (several sentences all supported by the same source can be cited at the end). Which is why I was surprised to see TDKR add so many CN tags to the article. Anyway, done now. MurielMary (talk) 04:35, 7 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Support Although, I wrote the article, so maybe this is COI. Anyway, I just did some edits to sort of wikify it. Not every paragraph needed to begin with the word "Clements". — Maile (talk) 12:40, 7 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Oppose insignificant total of deaths (article disagrees with the blurb, by the way), in the UK we'd see a handful of deaths due to cold weather, but would never consider it to be encyclopedic in nature. It just happens. Put on an extra jumper, stay inside. The Rambling Man (talk) 22:14, 6 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Support calling it historic bomb cyclone might be a bit of hyperbole, but certainly this one is not a run-of-the-mill blizzard. More notable than most of the other stuff currently on the mainpage, I guess it is slow-news season. 2A02:A451:8B2D:1:A84A:E1ED:944C:866C (talk) 22:59, 6 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. I experienced this blizzard and much like the cold wave I don't feel it merits posting. There have been far more damaging winter storms. 331dot (talk) 23:02, 6 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose there have been far more serious blizzards in recent history than this one, also the storm is already beginning to dissipate according to several weather reports both in my region and in other areas that have been affected. SamaranEmerald (talk) 23:50, 6 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Support dominant story about a massive storm affecting millions of people on the continent. Also now that there are bodies it should be an automatic posting no? --CosmicAdventure (talk) 02:33, 7 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Strong Oppose this will very likely not develop any further within the next coming days, tomorrow the temperatures where I live are projected to increase from the single digits to roughly 30-40 degrees Fahrenheit, and later on as high as 50 to 60 degrees. As Stormy Clouds suggests, this should be closed before these blizzards cause further “damage”. Kirliator (talk) 04:22, 7 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose Overexposure of a story due to being a "first-world problem". While a largish number deaths, we're talking across a large swath of NA, so effectively just a number of isolated deaths due to multiple events from the same weather system. (Whereas a hurricane may cause a major loss of life from one single storm in one small area). Also, it gets cold in NA in the winter, news at 11. --Masem (t) 06:24, 7 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Support (with a differently worded blurb perhaps). We've got a decently written article about an event which is very much in the news (and not just in North America). That should be all the reason we need for posting. Doesn't matter if it's overhyped; it's not our job to decide what should or shouldn't be in the news. Yes, some technical terms, like "bombogenesis", have a hypey ring to them, which media love to use a lot – and that's a perfect opportunity for Wikipedia to point people to an article that will explain to them what the term really means and, who knows, maybe even get them interested in science. This is exactly what ITN should be for. Yes, the death count is relatively low, but, firstly, that's a good thing (obviously) and, secondly, not surprising for the First World, which has the means to keep it low even in conditions that could kill thousands in poorer parts of the world. So maybe instead of focusing on the death toll, the blurb should concentrate on the meteorological phenomena and include a link to, yes, Explosive cyclogenesis. — Kpalion(talk)12:47, 7 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose – Major winter storm for sure, but media went to town calling it a "bomb cyclone" and overhyped it. Nothing particularly out of the ordinary and effects are not long-lasting beyond bitter cold. ~ Cyclonebiskit (chat) 19:22, 7 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
ARSA insurgents, using small arms and homemade land mines, ambush a Burmese military convoy in the village of Turaing. Three members of Myanmar's security forces are reportedly wounded. (BBC)(The Guardian)
Twitter, in response to criticism over its handling of U.S. President Donald Trump's account, says it will not block world leaders or remove their controversial tweets. (Reuters)
A hot air balloon crashes due to strong winds in Egypt's Luxor Governorate. A tourist from Australia is killed and 12 other tourists are injured. The Egypt Aviation Authority says there were 20 passengers on the balloon. (CNN)
An anonymous U.S. State Department official says no decision has been made on the scheduled January 1, 2018, $125-million payment to the UNRWA (United Nations Relief and Works Agency), which administers aid for Palestinian refugees. Media reports had stated the money was frozen. The official added the government is still reviewing U.S. assistance to the Palestinian Authority and has until January 15 to resolve the issue. (Reuters)(The Hill)
Belgium and the Netherlands, by swapping 48 acres of land, agree that one section of their border is now the center of the Meuse River. This is expected to fix a police jurisdiction problem. (UPI)(The Independent)
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
Nominator's comments: Not ready at all. Needs more references. Editor attention is why I bring it here before it's ready. Don't say "support" until it is ready. – Muboshgu (talk) 20:37, 6 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Support RDonly on improvement - the latter two-thirds of the Apollo section is unsourced, and there are a couple of (quite important, as they reference controversy) citation needed tags in the Space Shuttle section. Black Kite (talk)20:10, 6 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose on referencing In addition to the CNs, all the various awards should be cited if some are going to be. --Masem (t) 20:41, 6 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose any listing on quality right now. I'd be mildly tempted by a blurb, although it's still an old man dying (sadly, nonetheless) whose impact was short and sharp. The Rambling Man (talk) 22:16, 6 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
SupportTemplate:Ping I have cited everything in the article, removed some things I did not find citations for, and added a little more information in. I put extra emphasis in finding good citations for the Challenger information, as it was the most contentious. I support the blurb, he was one of the most important, well respected, and influential astronauts in NASA history. Kees08 (Talk)03:06, 7 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose the citations numbered (1) and (4) are not citations to any source, they are explanatory notes explaining why the claims are accurate. Isn't this original research? MurielMary (talk) 05:02, 7 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
In addition, I question the inconsistent application of citation standards. In the RD nomination for Clements, *every* sentence was required to be cited however in this article there are numerous individual uncited sentences but it has been passed. Any explanation or clarification? MurielMary (talk) 05:10, 7 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
There is no requirement at all for every sentence to be sourced, with the presumption that a sentence's source will be found in the next immediate citation(s). --Masem (t) 05:37, 7 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
And just to be clear, the only two other things: if you have a quote or a controversial/contested statement, that must have a source immediately following the sentence; and at minimum there should be at least one source per paragraph with some few exceptions. --Masem (t) 06:26, 7 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Sure! In many of those instances, the citations covered multiple sentences preceding the reference. I have been encouraged in the past to not cite every sentence if the citations are the same for multiple sentences in a row. I did go out of my way on this one and try to cite as many individual sentences as possible, because I plan to take it to FA at some point. If there are any specific sentences that you take issue to, feel free to add a cn tag or to add the citations as needed. Thanks! Kees08 (Talk)05:39, 7 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Still oppose - I read the references numbered (15) and (16), which are transcripts of astronaut conversations (i.e. primary sources), but they do not contain any of the statements in the section "Project Gemini". Where do those statements come from or are they the editor's own opinion/experience? I've put (cn) on the whole section. MurielMary (talk) 05:42, 7 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I could go into a little detail on how the transcripts cover it, but I am going to find some secondary sources now instead. Be back in a few! Kees08 (Talk)05:50, 7 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I removed some stuff I could not find a citation for (he did fly a flight later than the normal crew rotation, but I never saw anything that said why). Cited the rest of the sentences, and removed what were essentially footnotes from the intro, did not think they were needed. We can add them back as footnotes if we want. Also, citations are not required to be in English, so I removed the ref improve tag. Feel free to tag the article with any more concerns you may have. Thanks! Kees08 (Talk)06:43, 7 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Support RD only definitely not in the same league as international household names such as Margaret Thatcher, David Bowie, Michael Jackson etc whose deaths were reported in blurbs on ITN. MurielMary (talk) 09:42, 7 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Weak Oppose on article quality. This might merit posting (I'd call it a weak support) on its merits. But the section on this is really too bare bones for the main page. Normally we like a dedicated stand alone article for nominations although some exceptions pop up. But there is just not enough here. We need some meat on these bones. -Ad Orientem (talk) 02:50, 6 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose if the article is to be believed, per Template:Xt, this is stale or borderline, at least, since it would imply he was originally suspended either 2 January or 17 October last year. The article is so poor it's hard to determine which is which. This is clearly not ready. The Rambling Man (talk) 23:09, 7 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose The memo being rescinded doesn't mean U.S. Attorneys will come after the legal cannabis industry, just that they could. I doubt they'd waste their precious few resources on it, and would face massive opposition if they tried. – Muboshgu (talk) 20:57, 4 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose never knew there was a page where users could vote on nominating stories for the main page, I previously thought they were selected at random; but never mind that, just announcing the processes does not seem like an ITN worthy story to post on the main page, I would however support it if these were the results being posted. Python Dan (talk) 21:46, 4 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Support on principle, but wait Article is too short to post right now and we need more details; given the location, this might take more time to build out. But the accident is definitely large enough to be ITN. -- — Preceding unsigned comment added by Masem (talk • contribs)
Lorry is standard British English. If that is how the article is written, we should reflect that here. (eg if there was a horrific elevator accident in London that ended up ITN, we'd certainly be writing it as "lift" in our blurb.) --Masem (t) 16:02, 4 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Techically, the article should be in South African English. However, I'm from the UK so naturally wrote it in British English. Iff SA.Eng uses "truck", then I have no problem with it being changed. I will not support a change just to please American English speakers. Lorry is wikilinked to cater for them. Mjroots (talk) 16:09, 4 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, that's true. Basically, I'm saying that our ITN blurbs should align with the language dialect/idioms that the highlighted article uses, including the spelling issues (center vs centre) and common terms (truck vs lorry). Yes, the crash article should be S African English, and our blurb should be the same. --Masem (t) 16:17, 4 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Weak Support utterly insignificant accident, article is barely above stub, but it's "In the news" today so why not. It needs to make an engvar decision on truck vs lorry. At the enwiki, lorry redirects to truck. --CosmicAdventure (talk) 17:50, 4 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Article has been expanded probably as much as it can be until tomorrow. There are no issues re referencing, OR etc with the article. Mjroots (talk) 19:42, 4 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Support good enough. If there's nothing more to say, why place an artificial delay in the system? This was all over the news today and we have a start-class article which covers the main bases. Can those asking for "more" describe what's missing versus what's in reliable sources? This is good to go. The Rambling Man (talk) 20:30, 4 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
CommentBlack Kite, There seemed to be a consensus that this was insufficiently brief. Do you think this was addressed with updates, or do you think these objections are not valid? GCG (talk) 18:51, 5 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Template:Re - From the page about what ITN is - "In the case of a new, event-specific article, the traditional cut-off for what is enough has been around three complete, referenced and well-formed paragraphs." The article surpassed this at the time of posting. It could be said that those opposing it on quality did not have a strong case to oppose posting at all. Editors can only add to the article what is reported by reliable sources. A lack of coverage does somewhat hamper this process. Mjroots (talk) 21:55, 5 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Support on principle, oppose on quality of both We're in a slow news period, but as this is being broadly covered, this seems to be a fair story. Both articles have sourcing problems that need to be fixed. Also, I would caution against using the logos here for ITNC. --Masem (t) 14:21, 4 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Support It's a significant story. The location of relevant articles on Wikipedia is not obvious so there's an especial need for ITN to fulfil its primary purpose of assisting reader navigation. Andrew D. (talk) 14:28, 4 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Support People (especially tech savvy/mindful) will definitely turn to Wikipedia for more information and satisfy curiosity about them as they continue making headlines this week. So why not make them easier to locate?. –Ammarpad (talk) 14:51, 4 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose for now I like the idea, and I’ve noticed this in the media on both where I live and worldwide. However the articles provided are not in there best condition at the moment, a little improvement and I will change my standing to full support. Kirliator (talk) 15:09, 4 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose on quality Both articles, apart from basically being incomprehensible to anyone without a really good computing background (First sentence - "Spectre is a hardware vulnerability with implementations of branch prediction that affects modern microprocessors with speculative execution" - yeah thanks), don't provide any real-world context, i.e. "what effect could these vulnerabilities have on my computer?". There is absolutely nothing in either article which is useful to anyone who wants to know about what either subject means in anything less than computing engineering terms. (About the only sentence that addresses that is the one in Meltdown that points out that it only affects Intel processors, but most people don't have a clue what processors are in their devices anyway...). Both articles need severe improvement if they're to be linked on the Main Page. The Guardian story linked above provides "real-world" commentary on what the issues actually are; that needs to be included in these articles, the technical intricacies are secondary to that. Black Kite (talk)15:31, 4 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose same reason as Black Kite, had already typed my opinion prior to his, but it seems they beat to the opinion. Articles need major revisions before this nomination can be posted onto ITN. SamaranEmerald (talk) 15:38, 4 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Support on principle, oppose on quality of both I agree with the statements above that it is a significant event and therefore should be covered on the front-page. However, the quality of both articles is not great, it first needs to be properly updated and improved before it gets to the front-page. When this happens it has my full support Dragnadh (talk) 16:55, 4 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Support, this is not just another massive security hole that affects almost everyone, the fix is going to slow down your device by up to 30%. That's obviously a big deal. Any problems with the articles should be fixed first, of course. Count Iblis (talk) 21:20, 4 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose I was initially going to support this story, but when I read the comments pertaining to the event, I decided to take a look at the articles, there are indeed major potholes on the said security vulnerabilities, and thus I changed my mind on my standing, this event is not worthy for the ITN board on the main page. Python Dan (talk) 21:55, 4 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I opposed above but don't get me wrong, this is definitely an ITN-worthy story, it's simply that the articles aren't up to scratch, or even close. Black Kite (talk)21:57, 4 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Comment The Meltdown article has been substantially improved since the last comments here. I believe it is ready for the main-page. The Spectre article has been somewhat improved as well. Davey2116 (talk) 17:59, 5 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The Meltdown article still doesn't have any explanation of the real-world issues that might affect the average encyclopedia user, and it now also has a huge amount of unsourced text, which immediately disqualify it from being posted on the Main Page. The Spectre one still has the problems mentioned above (and is also only partially sourced as well). Black Kite (talk)18:11, 5 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose this story is already becoming obsolete and is no longer being headlined on various news networks anymore. There is significant opposition against posting this as mentioned above, so it’s perhaps time to consider closing the nomination soon. 64.134.168.201 (talk) 19:02, 5 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Don't do this. It takes time to get articles ready, and it is not necessary that an item is posted while it is headline news. The only valid reasons for closing a nomination are: WP:SNOW for obviously doomed nominations, if consensus has formed that the item is not sufficiently notable for posting, or that the item is stale (this is, older than the oldest item on the template). None of these apply here. Almost all opposes above concern article quality, which can improve at any time. --LukeSurltc12:54, 6 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose on quality. Even the alleged layperson's summary of the lead (Template:Tq) is utterly incomprehensible to non-experts; anyone capable of understanding this is not only already going to be aware of it, but will be reading technical sites for their information rather than Wikipedia. ‑ Iridescent13:00, 6 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose at the moment His death isn't sourced. I've just had to remove that part, as its "source" was from 2003 and therefore of course didn't mention his death at all. It needs a good copyedit as well for spelling, grammar etc. Black Kite (talk)18:50, 3 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
... but with incomprehensible sentences ("Some time in 2010 lawal kaita said that the north is determined to bring up a president that if Goodluck Jonathan should force his way on Nigerians then the north is determined to make the country ungovernable for him" - what?) and still no information on his death. Grammar and tenses still wrong. Tagged. Black Kite (talk)15:05, 4 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose in current state. The first sentence is an overly long ramble and the second and third sentences are completely unintelligble. In addition, all those one-sentence paragraphs in the section "4th Republic" need to be expanded or joined up some how as it reads very disjointedly. MurielMary (talk) 10:30, 4 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose Took a look over the article and found some sections in need of sourcing. Some source work needed in certain sections (especially career and awards). Shouldn't be too hard to fix I do have hope for this one.Support Holy poop that was fast and great work! --TDKR Chicago 101 (talk) 10:03, 3 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Comment It could use a copyedit. Three sentences start with "However" and it assumes the reader know what "the Majilis" is. Nothing to keep it off the main page though. --CosmicAdventure (talk) 01:04, 3 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Support but the important "Death" section currently violates MOS SURVIVEDBY. I hope the nominator will fix this with better encyclopedic wording before going to mainpage. Look at these two RDs currently on the Main page (Cheryll Sotheran and Recy Taylor) both just pronounce the death in one paragraph and that's all. I think in the absence of more context why survived by is necessary you can remove the second paragraph entirely or at least reword it. Overall, it is good to go, well sourced. –Ammarpad (talk) 11:11, 2 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
His claim to notability is his leadership on the Seville Expo 92. But this is covered in just two sentence. There should be more context and more information on what he actually did and achieved as Commissioner General. 2A02:A451:8B2D:1:19D8:8218:7FA9:C43B (talk) 17:50, 2 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose This is a hard one as records are records which are notable in their own right. For these kinds of records though there are 365 days in a year (366 in leap), in that time there are bound to be record high or low temperatures somewhere around the globe. Now if we were talking about the hottest or coldest ever on earth... that would be different. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 01:10, 2 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. I'm personally experiencing this right now, and I don't feel it is significant enough for posting at this time. 331dot (talk) 01:10, 2 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose I certainly didn’t enjoy the -1 degrees Fahrenheit when I went out this morning but it’s not ITN material and is still at the stub stage.--Pawnkingthree (talk) 01:19, 2 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose I hate the current weather at the moment too, but the article itself is little more than a single paragraph (thus a stub) and is not significant enough for the ITN board...yet. SamaranEmerald (talk) 01:42, 2 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Comment Article is a stub, and the cold snap is making local news all over the country but doesn't seem to be a national story. Improve the article and I'll re-open what seems to be the inevitable "snow close" for this nom and support it. --CosmicAdventure (talk) 02:28, 2 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Weak oppose – Yeah, it was -36 F in Duluth on Sunday, but that's not unprecedented. Some decades ago this user picked up a hitchhiker on New Year's Eve in Minneapolis when it was -34 F (-37 C). He was feeling no pain. (Nor was this user.) Sca (talk) 02:43, 2 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose it's the middle of winter, of course it's cold, and there's records set nearly every year now in part due to effects of climate change. No serious issues yet. --Masem (t) 02:52, 2 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Typhoons hit, rivers flood, ITN/C screams "OMFG the bodies!" and the story goes up. Please lets stop pretending we don't post routine weather events at ITN. Honestly. Come on. --CosmicAdventure (talk) 02:56, 2 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
There's a difference between inconvenience due to weather and large loss of life and personal property damage. --Masem (t) 03:01, 2 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Weak support a global competition (on a par with the snooker world championship) and this year in particular is significant, with basically a rookie defeating the 16-time world champion in the final. I accept that there will be little interest from the US on this, I don't know why we don't have more decent American players (Category:American darts players is woeful!), but hey ho. Incredible darts, fairy tale finish for Cross, the transfer of the crown is complete. Article is okay too. Weak support because "tournament statistics" section appears unreferenced... (P.S. Darts is big)... The Rambling Man (talk) 22:27, 1 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Support - having been hooked on the contest for the last while, I think that the notability of this should be in no doubt. Cross was dominant, but this year derives additional notability as it is the retirement of the greatest darts player of all-time. Clear-cut support from me on this one Template:Small. Stormy clouds (talk) 22:22, 1 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Weak support an amateur beating a champion is something you don’t see everyday. Darts is often an overlooked event within the sports world in contrast to others and the page has several anomalies, but nevertheless it wouldn’t hurt to post such a competition. Kirliator (talk) 22:30, 1 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Weak oppose okay, I know what I am about to say is not really a logical argument and hence should have no place on this page, but... Darts? Really? We are still arguing whether Iranian protests are important enough for the ITN or not... I mean, I don't think results of championships should be on the ITN page, because otherwise it would be flooded with news about sports. Karl.i.biased (talk) 23:03, 1 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose If "darts is big", that is just more proof that it is time to stop posting sports on the main page. It's not on ITNR - the only possible reason to post the other sports results alongside actual news that editors argue about in terms of importance - so there is zero justification. zzz (talk) 23:16, 1 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Support - multi-week international event with lots of participants + over a million pounds in prize pool, what's not to like? Banedon (talk) 00:15, 2 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
A million pounds. The other day, a tax bill raising the US national debt by a trillion dollars didn't qualify. zzz (talk) 01:08, 2 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
That argument doesn't work. If you want to apply completely separate criteria, then you would need to put the sports in a separate section. zzz (talk) 01:26, 2 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
A million pounds is nothing for major international sports. Thats like the weekly salary of some fairly non-descript footballers and basketball players.--Johnsemlak (talk) 10:09, 2 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The arguments would be, I suppose, that very few readers care who won a darts tournament; and that many might find it incredible that Wikipedia editors not only think that they do care, but that it's one of the half-dozen most important events, globally, at this point in time. zzz (talk) 04:16, 2 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I understand the concern, but opposing this particular item seems like righting great wrongs to me. I would definitely be in favor of a smaller purely sports news box somewhere else on the main page, but in the absence of one it's a bit strange to me to not post this one only because it's not ITN/R. Davey2116 (talk) 06:04, 2 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
OpposeSupport on ITNR, Oppose on article qualityThis is not ITNR, the elections are. We don't post when elected officials take office, only what the election results are. --Masem (t) 19:52, 1 January 2018 (UTC) ETC as pointed out before this is the ITNR point historically, so I remove my objection due to that, but still object on quality. --Masem (t) 23:55, 1 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose - should have been posted, because slow news or not slow news period, this is hardly in the news. Regardless of that, the article is not ready to appear on the mainpage, as it is just a collection of tables and flags. 2A02:A451:8B2D:1:C06F:AF92:E031:C97F (talk) 22:00, 1 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose per Masem and Muboshgu, the election occurred 6 months ago, and we don’t normally post when politics enter office. In addition, the article provided is mostly just a collection of unfinished tables. Kirliator (talk) 22:25, 1 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Comment - article quality is inadequate, and can be worked upon. However, many of the opposes appear predicated on ignoring the specific instructions listed at ITN/R. I am fine with this in principle, but it will need to be discussed at the relevant talk page if this is the consensus amongst commentators here. However, given the fact that the existing rules of ITN/R are in situe and should be enacted here, the above note and the specifications of this items listing at WP:ITN/R renders arguments like Template:Tq moot in my view, at least until/unless change is enacted at WT:ITN/R. Stormy clouds (talk) 22:54, 1 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
@User:Stormy clouds, if you look at previous nominations both currently on this board and in the archives, you’ll notice that much of the polls discussed the provided articles’ quality. Yes, it can be revised, and yes there is the chance that users can change their minds once the issue is resolved, but the point is that the quality is not inadequate. P.S. Even if a nomination fits ITN/R criteria, it is not always posted. SamaranEmerald (talk) 23:17, 1 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I know. I am simply pointing out that much of the opposition to the nomination is flagrantly in the face of the criteria of ITN/R, as many don't even reference quality. Given that I have 394 edits to the page, I am familiar with the concerns regarding article quality. That point has not been broached by many of the opposers here, which is what I am addressing - either we discuss the amendment to this nomination at WT:ITN/R, we ignore ITN/R and render it redundant, or we discount all opposition which is based on inaccurate knowledge, and work as a community to improve the article. Stormy clouds (talk) 23:27, 1 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
ITN/R is a bit of a mess, if you notice much of the content on the page relates to sports and all other subjects are significantly smaller in size, this includes elections. In addition there are events that appear on this board very frequently (e.g. Hurricanes and Terrorists attacks) and are often times posted, yet they are not listed on ITN/R. In other words ITN/R isn’t 100% reliable and certainly not 100% up-to-date. SamaranEmerald (talk) 23:42, 1 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
ITN/R is not meant for events that may be important to merit inclusion, but for recurring events, and in particular planned events (like space launches). Because we know these events are coming, that means there's time to get the articles in shape prior to the nomination. Hurricanes or terrorist attacks may be recurring, but they are not "planned events" like the others, and thus don't gain automatic inclusion.
Relative to this specific case, I can see that footnote has been there for a while, but it is hard to miss. I think we need to be more explicit that the UNGC elections should be posted specifically on the onset of the terms, rather than the election, since that's running against the normal national election one. --Masem (t) 23:55, 1 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
@User:SamaranEmerald And @User:Stormy clouds, I’m starting to think this discussion is getting out of hand between the two of you, I should remind everyone that ITN is not an art gallery or a world premiere. Everyone has their own opinions and we must respect them, whether we agree or disagree with them. Kirliator (talk) 00:19, 2 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
While I don't feel that anything too strong or untoward has been said between us, and the discussion revolves around policy rather than opinion, kudos for stepping in, and in the spirit of civility and good will I won't press the point any further. Thanks. - Stormy clouds (talk) 01:18, 2 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose per Masem. Plus, it's a rather mundane event since it happens every two years and the non-permament members have pretty much no influence on the security council's decisions anyway. Karl.i.biased (talk) 23:04, 1 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
. Mjroots (talk) 13:19, 14 January 2018 (UTC)
Mjroots (talk) 11:39, 10 January 2018 (UTC)
