Wikipedia:Peer review/Clements Markham/archive1

Clements Markham

• A script has been used to generate a semi-automated review of the article for issues relating to grammar and house style; it can be found on the automated peer review page for April 2009.

This peer review discussion has been closed.
I will welcome comments of any kind on this article, which covers a lot of ground apart from polar stuff, and describes the long, interesting and at times controversial life of a not particularly nice man ("that bloated old windbag" – per R. Rudmose-Brown, 1912) Thanks, Brianboulton (talk) 11:45, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

Comments from Maralia

I fixed some typos, added a few ship links, and did some minor MOS cleanup. Only a few remaining suggestions:

• A sentence or two explaining why quinine was wanted in India would be helpful.
  • I've written a short additional explanation re malaria (anagram not intended). I could say a little more if you think it necessary.
• Ditto for ipecacuanha.
  • Not much in my sources about it. I've now mentioned that ipecacuanha is a medicinal plant - again, I could add a bit more if necessary.
• Regarding The History of the Gradual Development of the Groundwork of Geographical Science: is this such a formidable work that it warrants italics rather than the typical quotes for papers?
  • Haven't read it. I think I'll put it back in the ordinary quotes.
• If Robert Neal Rudmose-Brown's name is to be shortened, shouldn't it be to "Rudmose-Brown"?
  • Yes, OK will do.
• I left one inline query in the Abyssinia section, about a redundancy with the prior section.
  • Thanks, I've removed the redundancy

You find the most fascinating people to write about; I'd love to get my hands on your library! Maralia (talk) 20:19, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

Thank you very much for your comments, and for fixing typos, ndashes etc. I'm a bit embarrassed, because I meant to correct all the typos this evening, not imagining that you would get to it so quickly! I assume the ship stuff is OK. Brianboulton (talk) 23:41, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

I've just returned online after a week of illness, and picked your request to tackle first because I'm so familiar with all the expeditions and characters now that sprucing up these articles hardly feels like work. You're allowed a few typos now and then :) I'm satisfied with the addition regarding malaria. I see that ipecacuanha has more varied uses than I thought, so I doubt there's any value to be added by further elaboration on that point. The ship links look fine; I'll see what I can do about turning HMS Assistance (1850) blue. Maralia (talk) 02:53, 1 May 2009 (UTC)

Comments from Wehwalt

Excellent article on an interesting subject. A few comments and suggested changes. Lede: "He had strong and determined ideas about the National Antarctic Expedition". Perhaps "about how the National Antarctic Expedition should be organized." Some mention that Scott led the NAE might be helpful in the lede. And a link to Napier.

Childhood:

• "the Revd" Is this the proper title, or should it be "the Reverend"?
  • Crockfords "How to address the clergy" gives "The Reverend", which it says may be shortened to "The Revd", so I've capitalsed the t.

Royal Navy:

• "passing third in a group of ten." I take it this means he became a midshipman?
  • Yes, clarified by rewording
• "evidently changed away from those of a conventional naval career." I'd strike the word "away"
  • Yes, done
• "he informed his father of his wish to leave the Navy, but was persuaded to stay." Odds are by his father, but you should probably say so.
  • Clarified

Arctic Expedition:

• "In the ensuing months Markham, as well as joining in the general fun " Damme, Nunavut in January is awesome! Seriously though I'd mention that in the long Arctic night, the expedition did (whatever constuctive things they could do) but also spent much time on diversions. Then the sudden jump to "general fun" will be smoother.
  • Reworded, with a clearer description of winter activities

Chinchona mission:

• Something strikes me a little odd. The Peruvians were anxious to preserve the chinchona trade, yet they let Markham out with the seeds and plants, and even gave him an export permit (though he overcame hostility, it seems). Doesn't seem they were trying very hard to preserve their trade.
  • From my reading, it appears that the hand of government was not strong in the remoter parts of the Andes. There was some confusion as to who was in charge out there. I have changed "authorities" to "interests", which I think is a fairer indication of the difficulties Markham faced.
• "species of a higher quality obtained by Richard Spruce" A different species of chinchona? Perhaps if so, say instead something like "a species more adapted to the Indian climate" or something else that indicates the superiority.
  • Reworded more or less as you suggest.

Second Arctic expedition:

• "was sufficient for his superiors to request his resignation." Perhaps instead "caused his superiors ..."
  • Done

National Antarctic expedition:

• "Markham faced a divergence of view. Murray and the Royal Society argued for a largely civilian project, undertaken and staffed by scientists; Markham, and most of the RGS contingent, saw a National Antarctic Expedition as a means of reviving naval glories and wanted the expedition organised accordingly." If he's taken sides, then he really isn't facing a divergence of view, if you want to be technical, which I guess we do. Suggest a slight rephrase.
  • Slightly rephrased
• "from the British Museum." Surely "of the ..."?
  • Yes, done

Retirement: The final paragraph seems to have chronology problems. Scott's death being a heavy blow is mentioned after events that took place two years after Scott's death. Suggest moving the "heavy blow" before the memorial events. Then start the travel sentence with "Despite his grief over Scott's death, ..."

• • Chronology corrected

That's really all I have. It is very well written. One general comment, though, I think you might just be too gentle on Markham through much of the body of the article. Perhaps some more indications of his dictatorial style (beyond playing favorites on Antarctic expeditions) might be mentioned, if they are known. Also, more info on his family life could be included if they are known. Anyhow, well done.--Wehwalt (talk) 22:19, 1 May 2009 (UTC)

• There is more stuff about his early family life in the main biography, but not especially interesting. I'll see if I can find anything worth adding. On the dictatorship thing, H.R. Mill called Markham "dictatorial" (after the latter's death), but didn't specify instances of dictatorial behaviour. I'm fairly happy with the balance at the moment; it may be amusing to pursue the bloated old windbag path, but the man was widely respected, too. Thank you for your thoughtful comments. Brianboulton (talk) 00:01, 2 May 2009 (UTC)

Comments from Graham

More to come, but here By this means the Indian government acquired a home source for the extraction of quinine would, perhaps, be clearer if it said, "from which quinine could be extracted". At it stands, some readers might interpret this as the extraction process's being acquired, rather than than the raw material. (Very interesting article, by the the way). Graham Colm ^Talk 20:56, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

Good suggestion, accepted. Brianboulton (talk) 23:48, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

Brian, a few more comments from me, mainly trivial points which you might want to ignore.

• There are a few "also"s — are they all needed? And, I saw one "in order to".

There were way too many "also"s, thanks for pointing them out. I've got rid of about eight, kept about four. "in order to" appeared three times, but two of these are within quotes. I've reworded the other.

• This sentence, The revival at the end of the 19th century of British interest in Antarctic exploration, after a 50-year interval, was the main achievement of Markham's RGS presidency, is a little passive, would "The main achievement of Markham's RGS presidency was....." be better?

I had noted that. Thanks for the reminder - now changed

• Here, During his lifetime he received public and academic honours, is the the "During his lifetime needed? Did he receive any posthumous honours?

Redundant phrase deleted

• Here, The following two years were occupied in a series of cruises in the Pacific - I am left with the impression that something is missing. Whose two years?

I've changed the sentence to begin: "During the next two years Collingwood cruised in the Pacific, visiting the Sandwich Islands..." etc

• I know this is your style, but I think and "and was" is needed here, On 25 June 1846 Markham passed the examination for midshipman, third-placed in a group of ten.

I've altered it to "being placed third in a group of ten"

• This is a real nitpick, but you don't transplant seeds, a scheme for collecting cinchona seeds and trees from the Peruvian and Bolvian Andes, and transplanting them to sites chosen in India.

Well spotted. Rather than go into tortuous subclauses I've dropped the reference to seeds.

That's all, as I said all trivial points for you to take or leave. Thanks for a fascinating read. I loved the messenger getting shot. Graham Colm ^Talk 18:14, 3 May 2009 (UTC)

Thank you for these welcome comments which all lead to small improvements. Brianboulton (talk) 21:47, 3 May 2009 (UTC)

Finetooth comments: This is a delightful read. It adds to an excellent body of Wikipedia work, much of it yours, on polar explorations and related matters. I have a few suggestions, all minor.

Lead

• "Among the geographical features bearing his name is Mount Markham in Antarctica, named for him by Scott in 1902." - Perhaps a tiny bit better would be "Antarctica's Mount Markham, named for him... " to put the modifier next to the thing modified.

Childhood

• Just to throw in my two cents about "The Revd", what I'm used to seeing is "the Rev." with a lowercase "t" and a period after the "v". These two are probably both correct as trans-Atlantic variations.
  • Crockfords allows "The Rev." as an alternate to "The Revd", but it seems the capital T is formally necessary.
• Wikilink archbishop?
  • I've wikilinked archbishop of York
• Perhaps it would be best to spell out Baronet rather than abbreviating it as Bart. Again, this may be a trans-Atlantic difference, but Bart is not something normally seen in the U.S. except as a first name or, when spoken, taken to mean Bay Area Rapid Transit.

Naval cadet

• "... it is reported that he was frequently invited to dine with the Admiral." - Lowercase "admiral"?
• "He also experienced his first taste of naval discipline when he was punished for impertinence to a naval instructor." - Curious readers will want to know how he was punished. Confined to quarters? Dunce cap?
• "he informed his father of his wish to leave the Navy" - I believe "navy" should be lowercase when not part of the full formal title, Royal Navy. I see that you have used lowercase in the next section.

First Arctic voyage 1850–51

• As you might guess, I'm happy to see the link to Franklin's lost expedition. I've been hoping you might eventually look north as well as south and take up Franklin, Rae, Amundsen, and Nansen, among others.
  • I have been brewing Nansen stuff for months. After Markham I am committed to a couple of music articles, then it will be north with Nansen (I did some fieldwork last September in Arctic waters, following Nansen's route)
• "The chief work during the ensuing months was preparations for the spring sledging season." - "Work" is singular; "was" in singular, but "preparations" is plural. To avoid this awkwardness, I'd probably change this to something like "involved preparations for" or "was preparing for". Also, it might be useful to link "sledging" to sled.
• "for the rank of Lieutenant" - Should "lieutenant" be lowercase?

First journey: 1852–53

• "accompanied by a missionary (and future archbishop of Santiago), Dr Tafuro" - Is his first name known? If so, it should probably be used rather than "Dr".
  • Name not given in the source, nor anywhere else I can find.
• "He finally left Cuzco on 18 May, accompanied now by a party of six... " - Delete "now"?

Cinchona mission, 1859–61""

• Should Bolivia be linked?
  • Well, I tend not to link countries - in this article Peru, Brazil, Chile, India, and Bolivia are all unlinked.

India Office

• "He was also involved in an ambitious plan for the transplanting of Brazilian rubber trees, claiming that he would "do for the india-rubber or caoutchouc-yielding trees what had already been done with such happy results for the cinchona trees." - I'm used to seeing the citation numbers immediately after the end of a direct quote. Probably citation 37 is the source, but the question may arise.

Abyssinia, 1867–68

• "Markham was attached to the force's headquarters staff, with responsibility for general survey work and in particular the selection of the route through the mountains that the troops would take to arrive at Magdala, the king's mountain stronghold." - It might be helpful to add the name of the coast, how far the landing site was from Magdala, and which direction the troops marched to get from one to the other. I assume they sailed around Africa and approached the coast from the south since the Suez Canal was not yet open.
  • Napier was C-in-C India, so I reckon the main force sailed from there (a much shorter distance than from UK). I have added their landing point in the Red Sea, and the direction and distance of the march to Magdala

Honorary secretary

• "... was the author of the Encyclopædia Britannica (ninth edition) article on the Progress of Geographical Discovery. - Should Progress of Geographical Discovery be in quotation marks. If it's topic rather than a title, should it be lowercase?

President

• "In May 1888 Markham resigned from his position as RGS Secretary, finding himself at odds with the Society's new policies which appeared to favour education over exploration.[51] On his retirement he was awarded the Society's Founder's Medal, 'in acknowledgement of the value of his numerous achievements to geographic literature ... on his retirement from the secretaryship after 25 years' service.' " - Delete "On his retirement" since the direct quote repeats the phrase?

Images

• The two images, one on the right and the second on the left, in the "Naval cadet" section make a slight text sandwich (about three lines long) on my monitor. This could be fixed by moving the naval cadet image down slightly. Otherwise the images and their licenses look fine to me.

I hope these few suggestions prove helpful. Finetooth (talk) 21:42, 2 May 2009 (UTC)

Thank you for these comments. Where I have not responded above, you can take it that have simply followed your suggestions which I found most helpful. Brianboulton (talk) 22:50, 2 May 2009 (UTC)

Ruhrfisch comments: As requested, here are my thoughts. I agree that this looks very good, here are some very nitpicky suggestions for improvement.

• I think the lead could use a link to Franklin's lost expedition at "lost expedition" in ... one of the many searches for the lost expedition of Sir John Franklin.
  • This was linked later in the artice, but I have transferred the link to the lead.
• In the lead the link to Magdala seems to be the wrong link (place in Israel), I think Battle of Magdala is the correct link
  • Whoops...corrected
• Would it make sense to say where Valparaíso is The ship reached Valparaíso, the headquarters of the Pacific station, on 15 December ... (not all know where it is - some in the US might confuse it with this Valparaiso, although it is hard to sail there...
  • Done
• Is there a date when he reached Lima that could be added to On reaching Lima Markham learned of the death of his father, and departed immediately for England where he arrived on 17 September.[27] so we know how long the return journey took?
  • Date added
• What did he do for the 6 years between his first and second Peruvian journeys? OK, this is addressed in a later section, but I think there should be a sentence or two here.
  • I've slightly changed the text, but I don't want to add too much for fear of repetition. The second Peruvian journey is considered outside the main chronology, because it seems sensible to deal with both Peru trips together.
• I would link Cinchona in the article (not just the lead)
  • Done
• This needs a ref: He found the work tedious, but was able, after six months, to transfer to the forerunner of what became, in 1857, the India Office. Here, the work was interesting and rewarding, with sufficient time to allow him to travel and to pursue his geographical interests.
  • Reference added.
• Maybe I missed it, but I would mention when the women membership issue was resolved in the President section
  • Information and reference added
• Maybe it is just my tiredness, but I was a bit uncertain about these two sentences at the end of the Discovery Expedition section - the transition just seemd a bit odd (went from very successful to this). Moreover, Markham received much criticism for his management of the later stages. Discovery had been frozen into her anchorage since the start of the 1902 winter; Markham had sanctioned a second Antarctic season, but had been unable to raise sufficient funds for a relief expedition in 1904, and had been forced to yield control to the Treasury.[71]
  • I've altered te wording a bit, to emphasise that although the expedition was reported as a success, the government was none too pleased with Markham, whose alleged mismanagement meant that the Treasury had to pay the costs of the relief expedition.
• Would it make sense to say was godfather to the explorer's son, born 14 September 1909 and named Peter Markham [Scott] (add Scott)? Also say visited by Peter Markham Scott (not just Peter Scott) later?
• Done.

Hope this helps. I made a copyedit or two for what seemed to be obvious small typos - revert if I acted in error. Please let me know when this is at FAC and I will gladly support - well done. Yours, Ruhrfisch _><>°^° 04:10, 6 May 2009 (UTC)

Thank you for the review. With such helpful coments from the peer reviewers, I think the article is more or less ready to face FAC. A few final tweaks, perhaps. Brianboulton (talk) 14:44, 6 May 2009 (UTC)