Wikipedia:Peer review/Crewe Alexandra F.C./archive1

Crewe Alexandra F.C.

I've been working on and off for a few weeks to improve the article content and its sourcing with a view to a possible nomination for Good article status. How does it rate in terms of quality? Does it cover all of the areas a Good football club article should? Is there a good balance to the overall content (I am conscious that the sexual abuse scandal cannot be ignored, and while this article focuses mainly on the Crewe aspects, is to over/under described?)? What might usefully be added? All comments welcome.

Thanks, Paul W (talk) 11:47, 23 March 2021 (UTC)

Comments by WA8MTWAYC

Hi Paul, you've been quick with addressing some of my earlier points! [see Paul W Talk] Some further comments: Lead

• "They" is used a lot in the introduction, I would use "Crewe", "the team", "the club" or even "Alexandra" (I don't know if anyone says this to refer to the club...) more. - Done.
• If you want to push it to FA status, I would avoid too many nouns plus -ing ==> [User:Tony1/Noun plus -ing]. - Done. (I think - I am conscious of some complex linking sentences).
• How many seasons did Crewe spent in the Combination? - Done. (two)
• A lot of "spent" in the second para, I would use some synonyms. - Done.

History

• A lot of brackets are used, I think it's better to rewrite some sentences to have a better flow throughout. - Done.
• Some seasons can be wikilinked, such as 1931–32 and 1935–36. - Done.
• Maybe indicate how Crewe could enter the Welsh Cup as an English team in the first place. - Done.
• "and few would have argued" doesn't really sound encyclopedic. - Removed
• How many points did Crewe gain during the 1955–56 season (as it's stated for the two seasons thereafter)? - 28 - Done.
• "most famous matches", "most notable win", "most notable signing" ==> I think it's better to make statements like these more neutral, as it's quite subjective. - Done
• "Signed from Bury, Stan Bowles scored 15 goals during Crewe's 1970–71 season before being sold to Carlisle in October 1971." He is before my time (so don't know how good he was), but how is this relevant in Crewe's overall history? - Removed. Done. (Stan Bowles went on to play for England - his cousin, Paul [less good], also played 178 games for Crewe).
• "Grobbelaar once ran onto the field with a grotesque face mask, intending to intimidate the opposition" This is great, but also sounds trivial - Removed. Done.
• A lot of players' names are included in the latter part of the section, I would reduce it to the most notable or the ones who were sold for the highest fees. - Removed. Done.
• There is bit of recentism and it should be trimmed. Statements like "Thordarson's first game in charge was a 2–2 draw away at Millwall in the FA Cup 3rd round" don't really fit in the whole, especially if you consider that the first 60 years of the club are summarised in only three paras. - Done.

Follow up:

• "in the new stadium in 2000" ==> better to change "new stadium" to all-seater or renovated stadium, as it wasn't a completely new one. - Done.
• "This was replaced by a simpler badge" ==> when? 1975 - Done.
• "The current badge" ==> since when? 1998 - Done.
• "has always featured a red or predominantly red top" ==> according to the source, Crewe's kit during the early years (from 1886 to 1896) was white. Amended - Done.
• I think the para about the Blue Moon song fits better in the attandances section. - now have "Songs and music subhead" also refing Dario G
• It's better to only list the players who were international and were playing at Crewe, not all players who had an international career before or after their spells at the club. Not only is it hard to keep this updated, it's also not really relevant for Crewe. Gillingham F.C. provides a decent example on how it can be listed. - Thank for this advice. Done
• Sexual abuse scandal - I still think this section is too large and could do with some summary style, but it's of course up to you. You could also create a breakaway article in Sexual abuse scandal at Crewe Alexandra F.C. (only a suggestion). - Done.
• Maybe write the club records in prose (see e.g. Cardiff City F.C.)? - Done.
• I would use one source which covers all Crewe Alexandra managers, instead of sourcing a few managers individually. - Done.
• References: make sure all relevant parameters are filled out (work/publisher, retrieval date, date of work, et cetera), that the formatting is consistent, avoid unreliable sources. Also, ref 6 (Crisp) needs page numbers. - Done.
• In general: I would avoid too many brackets throughout the article (for flow), make sure relevant articles/seasons are linked (and watch out for overlinking). Make sure everything is sourced as there are some sentences and sections which currently are not. - Done.

These were some of the things that attracted my attention. I hope others will leave some suggestions/comments, so I've also listed and linked the peer review at WP:FOOTY. Cheers, WA8MTWAYC (talk) 11:52, 27 March 2021 (UTC)

Further comments:

• Lead: "in the First Division / Championship" ==> it might be useful to explain (whether via a footnote or rewriting the sentence) that the First Division became The Championship. Reworded - Done.
• Also check the history section for this, e.g. the Second Division was the third tier between 1992 and 2004. - Done.
• History: use the full name instead of the abbreviation "LNWR". - Done.
• History: indicate which divisions Crewe were promoted/relegated to, such as 1963 (from the fourth to the third). - Done.
• I meant only the records and stats section to be written in prose, sorry. As it's the status quo for the honours list to be presented with bullet points, questions will be asked about that. - Done.
• Coaching positions "as of 31 March 2019" - needs updating or has it remained the same? - largely the same, but added Alex Morris first team coach and U23 manager Done.
• Some references should be reused, e.g. Crisp, p. 7 is used four times - check for others. - Done.

Comments by Wna247

Most of my comments have already been picked up by the user above, but to add -

• I would trim down the summary paragraph at the top of the page a bit, really summarise the club , who they are, where they are based, what league they currently play in, and significant history such as ,Wembley finals, domestic cup finals and league titles. I wouldn't discuss local league and cup competitions here. and also you can breifly mention the scandal over one or two lines here. - Done.

• Speak of the scandal, I understand it is a very in depth story. This section NEEDS to be shortened it is about 200 words short of the length of the main history section of the club. As mentioned above I would keep the link at the start (Main article: United Kingdom football sexual abuse scandal) and also link a new article on the Crewe side of the story, which goes into it in more depth. - Done.

In this section of the main Crewe article I would probably keep it to 2 or 3 paragraphs. not quite, but probably short enough

• I also agree that a lot of the text in brackets can either be removed or add into the current prose. - Done.

• One thing I would have a look at is make sure every paragraph ends with a reference. There's one in the attendance and one in rivalries section.- Done.

• ATTENDANCE SECTION - The Crewe built-up area had a total population of 71,722 in 2011.[86] The town was an industrial centre for railway and automotive engineering, with Crewe railway works employing 20,000 at its peak, and the Rolls-Royce (now Bentley) car factory employing 1000s more (in 2010, it had about 3,500 workers).[87] - is this sentence needed. It talks more about the population of Crewe than the support of the team itself. - Done.

• RIVALRIES - Close encounters between the two clubs since 2010 have resulted in violence and arrests.[91][92][93][94] - Try to stick to no more than 2 references in a sentence. If the info given in this reference is similar or discusses the same thing (i.e the same incident at a match) then pick the most relevant.- Done.

• Crisp, Marco (1998). Crewe Alexandra Match by Match (2nd ed.). - This has been reference 30 times, as mentioned above. You can reference the source multiple times but use specific page numbers. - Done.

• CLUB RECORDS - Some records are not referenced. See if you can find a book or newspaper article that references them. - Done.

• The Managerial history isn't referenced but looks like a carbon copy of the linked Main article: List of Crewe Alexandra F.C. managers. so maybe moved this linked article to the top of the coaching section? - Done.

I have added my comments I can add a bit more and go a bit more in depth in you need me to.

Wna247 (talk) 19:23, 28 March 2021 (UTC)

Thanks for working through my comments. I only scanned the article quickly before making those so just put those down. If you want I can do through the article section by section if you want - I've just not had much of a chance since I put my last comments on. But before I do go through it I will ask are there any further Books on Crewe Alexandra, I ask because books by Crisp and Hornbrook are used a lot , this is fine to do but what I have done in the Stockport County page is reference books where I can ( it makes the page more reliable) and then so I'm not going into waffle I have included further reading at the bottom of the page. For example in the Stockport page there is about 2 lines covering the 1996-97 season (and 3 references) yet in further reading there are 3 books that specifically cover that season - not including the dedicated history books.

If there is anything like this for Crewe, maybe not a specific season but maybe more for a specific time period then use those books as reference. I will go through the article more thoroughly soon. Wna247 (talk) 13:49, 3 April 2021 (UTC)

Crisp is a statistical bible covering the period up to 1998, while Hornbrook's "Gradi Years" (as the title implies) is mainly focused on the period under Dario Gradi's management. There are a couple of other books: Hornbrook wrote a follow-up "Scarlet Ribbons" (I'm trying to find my copy of it) and journalist and Crewe fan Charlie Morris also published a book ("Generation Game" - mainly a family memoir) in 2019, but not much else that I am aware of. Paul W (talk) 19:53, 4 April 2021 (UTC)

Further Comments by Wna247

INTRO SECTION

• "The supporters' fiercest rivalry is with Staffordshire-based side Port Vale." - This could be removed as this line is covered in more depth in RIVALRIES. - "summarize ... most important points" as per MoS
• "named after Princess Alexandra." - Lose this as it is mentioned in the History and is referenced there. - "summarize ... most important points" as per MoS (Alexandra is a rare football club name - IMHO this warrants its mention in the lead)
• " playing there for four seasons" - again its covered in the history section so not really needed here. - Done.
• " second tier after an absence of 101 years" - Write football league first division and link as it has been a few words later.
• ""They played in the Football League First Division―renamed the Football League Championship prior to the start of the 2004–05 season―for eight of the following nine seasons..." - I would unlink Football league first divison here and re-write this a bit I know Crewe were relegated and went straight backup again in the early 200's but that doesn't seem clear with this sentence. - And I know it can get confusing because the leagues being renamed - First division at this point actually being the 2nd tier. - Done - this and previous point also discussed with WA8MTWAYC above
• "Gradi encouraged Crewe to play attractive, technical football and built a reputation for developing young players, with future England internationals David Platt, Danny Murphy, Seth Johnson and Dean Ashton all emerging at the club." - I would remove this and put it in the HISTORY section that relates to Gradi's time. - "summarize ... most important points" as per MoS
• "the Football League Trophy title in 2013." - I would write "first and only Football League Trophy title in 2013 - Done.
• "From late 2016 through to publication of the FA's Sheldon review in March 2021..." This whole paragraph can go in the scandal section if it isn't already. - "summarize any prominent controversies" as per MoS

Will add more when I can. Wna247 (talk) 16:04, 4 April 2021 (UTC)

I have looked at examples of lead sections from other clubs (eg: Burnley, Cardiff City - both FAs) and also looked closely at the MoS and its guidance on leads (Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Lead section). I have - as it suggests - aimed to 'give the basics in a nutshell and cultivate interest in reading on', to present a 'concise overview ... identify the topic, establish context, explain why the topic is notable, and summarize the most important points, including any prominent controversies'" [emphasis added]. Particularly on the last point, I would be reluctant to cut comments from the lead just because it is detailed in the relevant sections underneath (and I am also conscious that it could look like the scandal is being 'airbrushed' from the club's article). Paul W (talk) 13:54, 5 April 2021 (UTC)